Talk:Agnes of Rome

Sections / Pages

This page should be split up into 3 pages:

• one about the saint
• one about the church of S. Agnese fuori le mura
• one about the church about S. Agnese in Agone

Ehm... Who wrote it? But i think, it is a good idea - it will be possible to set the InterWikis. I wrote the articlede:Sant'Agnese in Agonea few minutes ago but the InterWikis between articles and the sections of the articles have no sense!AN05:12, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Links

This page suffers fromeverything2syndrome of linking random words.

Why is this a big deal?

Why do people make a big deal out of Saint Agnes? She is not that important so why all the rituals and mass about her? The 13 year old girl died because she is a christian and she was excuted for refusing to marry, not mean to be senseless but why waste time on that? It's sad she died an worngful death, her dicision should been repected but it's better to talk about two churchs bearing her name plus this artical should be short not long.

I for one, have always LOVED St. Agnes, & am glad there is a Wikipedia page for her(& for a great many other Saints for that matter). St. Agnes showed a tremendous amount of courage for a child her age, & am pleased that she is venerated by the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican(Episcopalian), & Lutheran Churches right down to this very day(such a shame that most Protestant churches no longer venerate the Saints). She may not be all that important to you, but, she certainly is for me.--Splashen(talk)01:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't sure if I really wanted to respond, but I feel I have to. I know it seems silly to commemorate saints, but if you are part of the Orthodox or Roman Catholic faith, it is a major part of your daily devotions and prayers. You remember people who have died for the Christian faith - especially those who were severely persecuted in the early years of Christianity. For me, it makes me realize how insignificant MY problems in life are and why it's important to mantain my faith. To each his/her own, but it's not a senseless waste of time IMHO.CWood00:12, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It isn't really about her or any of the other saints, they are basically proxies for worship, in a way a polytheistic approach to Christianity, where different parts of God's essence is represented in multiple avatars, rather than the single avatar Jesus. So the importance of Saint Agnes has little to do with the actual girl, far more to do with Christians who identify with the part of God she is meant to represent. If you are asking whether it is encyclopedic - yes, simply because of the meaning it has to others.Sad mouse00:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

She never existed, and there is no way a girl of the Roman nobility, whatever her faith, would have been treated this way.—Precedingunsignedcomment added by115.131.199.10(talk)13:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes she did in fact exist. Her death was recorded at the time, & Christians were persecuted regardless of class, in the Roman Empire.--Splashen(talk)03:58, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

You have given the reasons why she is important in your question. If it doesn't convince you -- well, that it has convinced other people makes her important.Goldfritha02:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

i'd like to say that if i had made this article (i didn't) i would have made it because we share a name (Agnes). many woman named 'Agnes' are named after this saint or a nun named after her... just a thought209.193.29.247(talk)01:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The anonymous user who started this section just gave a perfect summary of everything wrong with wikipedia in 2009: someone obviously not fluent in English comes storming into English wikipedia and proclaims that, because the article is about something they don't consider important, it should be DELIBERATELY shortened as a matter of principle. This despite the fact that other users are obviously willing and able to contribute well-written, thoroughly cited content to it. For this, anon, I salute you; Godspeed.Wormwoodpoppies(talk)03:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Article movement

I am reverting the recent movement of this article fromSaint AgnestoSaint Agnes of Romefor two reasons: (1) No explanation of the move was given in the discussion page as per Wikipedia article movement policy, (2) the move was not opened up for voting by Wikipedia editors and (3) Saint Agnes is known more by the titleSaint AgnesnotSaint Agnes of Rome(also this is the only major Saint Agnes in existence). --Gerald Farinas22:24, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Honor

Does honor mean hymen? Actually sayinghymenwould be much more NPOV.Dave02:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Miracles?

As far as my understanding goes, a person must perform miracles after death to be made a saint of the Roman Catholic Church. this article lists the miracle before St. Agnes' death, but does not mention much beyond that. And does anyone know when she was made a saint, and by whom? Just curious. Happy St Agnes Eve! Russia Moore22:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Usually someone has to perform three miracles before death, but that is a fairly modern thing. Most of the very early saints don't have any recorded miracles, may not have actually existed, and in a large number of cases are actually just the local pagan gods rebadged as Christian saints in an effort to convert the locals (egSt Bridgetis almost certainly the pagan goddessBrigid,most of the legends of St Bridget are identical to earlier legends about Brigid, and the early locals considered her to be both saint and goddess).Sad mouse00:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

1. it's after death.
2. it's not required in case of martyrs
3. her canonization occured before the process was thus formalized

As for why she was canonized: she was a martyr.Goldfritha02:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

With respect, that is simply not correct (except for point three, as in early saints didn't have any rules to follow). Martyr is simply someone who was killed for their faith. There have been many many people killed for their faith, far far more killed for their lack of faith, only a tiny minority were turned into saints. Martyr does not equal saint. The best example is probably American Idol. There are thousands of people with equal skill, by chance a few get on the show, by popular choice a few make it big, they are no better than anyone else yet they become famous. St Agnes (if she existed) was just some kid who got killed by religion, no better or worse than any one victim, by chance alone history uses her to represents all of them.Sad mouse06:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

One note: while not all martyrs may be 'turned into' saints (by which I assume you mean, are declared saints by the RC church), that doesn't mean they are not saints according to Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching is that a saint is someone who is in heaven. Being martyred is a quick route to heaven. Those who are formally declared saints are supposed to be those they are sure of, but it doesn't mean others aren't saints. And generally, a martyr is a saint. This doesn't mean I disagree with your points about gods. Oh, and miracles after death, not before,aregenerally required.Skittle12:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

With due respect, Sad mouse, you're wrong.Goldfritha19:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

How many hundreds of thousands of martyrs are there? How many have been canonised? Obviously, being a martyr is not sufficient. But seriously, who cares? Okay, a billion Christians do, good point.Sad mouse04:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Dead link

• http://www.haverford.edu/engl/engl301/agnes/agnes.htmSt. Agnes, virgin martyr

This link seems to be dead. I've put it here in case it's not.Skittle12:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

picture - statue?

caption underneath the image says its a statue? surely not - looks more like a painting to me.Tyhopho13:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Huh?!

The article says that St. Agnes was canonized in 1950. I don't see how this could possibly be correct, as she's been venerated for many, many centuries. Maybe someone's confused? 1950 was the year Maria Goretti was canonized.BLHersey(talk)01:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The more I thought about this, the more I realized it has to be a mistake, so I'm just changing it myself.BLHersey(talk)02:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Not the one in the Christmas carol?

Is the note that says the carol Good King Wenceslas refers not to this Saint Agnes (where the king's page tells him "yonder peasant" lives "by Saint Agnes' fountain" ) but to Agnes of Bohemia, actually correct? If so it seems odd. According to the article for Agnes of Bohemia she lived 1211 - 1282, while the Good King Wenceslas article states he is thought to be based on Duke Wenceslas of Bohemia who lived 907 - 935. The Wenceslas article adds he is sometimes confused with King Wenceslas I - however evenif the songwriter had this later figure in mind that is also odd as Agnes of Bohemia was his sister, so why would the king's page already be referring to a "saint Agnes'fountain"? Also the article on Agnes of Bohemia says she was not canonised until the 20th Century, and was not even beatified until well after this song was written in the mid-19th century... Is it not possible that the original saint Agnes was venerated in Bohemia at this time (and is the one referred to in the song) and Agnes of Bohemia was named after her? Orlando098(talk)12:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Orlando098 makes perfectly reasonable points. Perhaps the error was simply inserted in the article by someone whose confidence outpaced their competence, and no one has corrected it.--Wetman(talk)06:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the following section fr Popular Culture to here: "She is sometimes misconstrued to be the Saint Agnes referred to in theChristmas carol"Good King Wenceslas";as the peasant who Wenceslas sees, lives, "Right against the forest fence, by Saint Agnes' fountain." The saint being referred to is actually SaintAgnes of Bohemia."

Wenceslas I, Duke of Bohemia was famous for trudging through the snow at all hours of the night to distribute alms. When he was murdered by his brother in September 965, he was considered a holy martyr and a cult developed in both Bohemia and England. It was this Wenceslas that inspired Neale's carol. ( "King" sounds better in the lyrics.) St.Agnes of Bohemia lived in the early 13th century. While the connection with Bohemia appears logical, Duke Wenceslas could not have visited a peasant living by a fountain named for someone who hadn't yet been born.Mannanan51(talk)00:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)Mannanan51

Independent historical evidence?

Is there any independent evidence regarding the existence of Agnes or, more plausibly, the prefect Sempronius? I'd imagine someone must have looked for it at some point.JQ(talk)00:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Ambrose, in the sermon linked, says quite frankly, "she seems to me to have borne not so much a human name, as a token of martyrdom, whereby she showed what she was to be." Compare the martyrSaint Stephen,whose name simply betokens his martyr's crown or garland,.--Wetman(talk)06:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand she clearly had a major cult in Rome by the time when the funeral hall over her supposed grave was begun (nowSanta Costanzaetc), when if not martyred she would have been in her early forties according to her dates here. I have seen dates putting her a century or so before though.Johnbod(talk)00:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

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Patronages

Agnes being the patroness of gardeners and rape victims (etc.) isn't based on any identifiable source. On google books, the oldest "reference" to this effect isthis,a random 2008 publication onBella Italia. List of saints' patronages tend to attract pileups of random unreferenced listcruft. We should require any entry in such list to be based on at least half decent hagiographical literature. --dab(𒁳)12:58, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Beauty

"A beautiful young girl from a wealthy family" Hardly encyclopedic is it? In fact, looking at kids like that is what I would expect from Ali Snackbar and friends, whether they live in Essex, the Middle East of wherever it is that you live and practice your religion - a religion which, following the lead of good old Mo' thinks it acceptable to abuse young women.84.60.23.33(talk)23:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)