Talk:Noam Chomsky

Latest comment:2 months agoby Remsense in topicControversy Section?
Former featured articleNoam Chomskyis aformer featured article.Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, checkthe nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Good articleNoam Chomskyhas been listed as one of thePhilosophy and religion good articlesunder thegood article criteria.If you can improve it further,please do so.If it no longer meets these criteria, you canreassessit.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page asToday's featured articleon December 13, 2004.
On this day...Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 9, 2004Featured article candidatePromoted
January 15, 2006Featured article reviewDemoted
October 27, 2007Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 27, 2019Good article nomineeListed
April 17, 2023Peer reviewReviewed
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia'sMain Pagein the"On this day..."column onDecember 7, 2019,andDecember 7, 2023.
Current status:Former featured article, current good article

Road to FA, pt. II

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Some remaining tasks to take this article tofeatured status,with some imported from the recent peer review:

  • Review all citations fortext–source integrity
  • Replace primary sources with best-in-class sources
  • Replace chomsky.info sources
  • Bundle citations with{{sfnm}}where feasible
  • Rewrite the parts that rely on "Brain from Top to Bottom"
  • Rewrite the beginning of§ Universal grammarand add a paragraph break
  • Define "rationalism" as parallel to definition of "empiricism"
  • Get a better source for Saudi Arabia political views; try McGilvray
  • Get a better source for views on partition of Palestine
  • Reduce hagiography in§ In politics:remove quotes, pare second paragraph, expand on Srebrenica massacre remarks, consider page number for Rabbani 2012, consider paring re: Horowitz, Kay, ADL, Dershowitz
  • Address history of controversial statements on genocide in the political beliefs sectiondoi:10.5038/1911-9933.14.1.1738
  • Turn the achievements laundry list into readable prose
  • Confirm with sourced prose or remove the flatlist items from the infobox
  • Add commas after "in year X" clauses
  • Consider whether to expand on his views on the Russian invasion of Ukraine
  • Incorporate noteworthy anti-Chomsky critique into the Political views section so the final section can focus on Influence/Legacy
  • Cross-reference"Noam Chomsky".Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
  • Invite reviewers to the FA nom

czar04:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

Influenced (academia) list

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The first and last names on this list are mismatched.2601:646:8F00:7860:1DC4:7986:9B13:D579(talk)22:55, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

What do you mean?RemsenseLuận23:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Controversy Section?

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Among some other problems throughout his life, Noam was close with former financier and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. Noam has claimed to have met with him several times after his original conviction and often gave extremely lame or bizarre responses to people on this topic such as "none of your business" or "he served his time" despite the severity of his crimes and the heinous nature.Cruetresin(talk)02:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

"Controversy" sections are often the result of poor writing, noxious and poorly representative; the current article does the much preferable thing of interspersing those details throughout the article where they actually belong, in proportion to how they are represented in sources about Chomsky perWP:NPOV.RemsenseLuận02:38, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Understood. Where do you think the relationship with Epstein should go? I think it's pretty significant and has a wealth of reporting.Cruetresin(talk)02:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
We don't put emphasis on the Epstein connection because reliable sources don't. If the goal amounts to activism, then the intent is misplaced. I'm fairly sure this discussion has been had before, but if you want to pitch your case you can collate some sources here—I'm sure many are of relatively low quality (not dismissing the situation itself here, don't misunderstand) but generally these cases are decided based on what the best available sources have to say.RemsenseLuận02:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I guess it would depend on what a reliable source is but regardless Chomsky himself has endorsed that he has met with him.
Here are two to get the ball rolling
https://www.wsj.com/articles/jeffrey-epstein-noam-chomsky-leon-botstein-bard-ce5beb9d?mod=hp_lead_pos1
https://www.wsj.com/articles/jeffrey-epstein-calendar-cia-director-goldman-sachs-noam-chomsky-c9f6a3ff?mod=article_inlineCruetresin(talk)02:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
SeeWP:Reliable sourcesfor bountiful guidance.
The other part of the equation here is one of proveable interest versus innuendo: it's simply not that interesting on an encyclopedia what friends someone has unless they, y'know, do something (more substantial than move money, I have to specify, even a lot of money)—even if the WSJ wrote about it, there's just not much for us to synthesize of encyclopedic interest from that. I get it's frustrating for people who smell smoke, as it were—it's irrelevant here, but I happen not to think much of the Epstein connection with Chomsky in particular—but we need sources saying there's a big fire if we don't want to go afoul of our policies aboutbiographies of living people.We can't just write suggestively about smoke, even if it's well-sourced.RemsenseLuận03:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Well first of all the mere relationship with the most infamous sex offender of all time years after his conviction and being listed on Epstein's calendar should be enough to warrant a mention. Secondly, he had been given money, financial advice, free trips (not to Little St. James) but flown around to various places to meet with Epstein, and many other things that should warrant at the very little a mention of it all while not denying it and keeping everything extremely vague on exactly what happened. Kinda insane to just call having a relationship with the most heinous person in the world in both criminality and lifestyle "just smoke".Cruetresin(talk)03:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I really do understand why you say all this, but I'll try to reiterate the position: we do not want to slander anyone or insinuate they did things they did not do. Generally, an encyclopedia article would not mention that X public figure moved $200,000 for Y public figure if there is not something more interesting involved there. We have nothing more material to say in that vein here, so if we include the $200,000 thing, we are in effect publishing innuendo implying Chomsky did awful things without actually saying that he did.RemsenseLuận03:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply