Talk:Spree killer

Older comments

It is very unkind to erase someone else's additions and don't even leave a word in the discussion to ssay why you did it! Anyhow, I redid my additions using the history tool. The recent wave of berserking in USA is important and certainly belongs here. Regards: Tamas Feher

I left an explanation in the edit summary notes. If you can use the history tool you should be able to see those comments. The explanation still stands, so I am reverting again. It has nothing to do with being unkind and everything to do with keeping Wikipedia professional and encyclopedic.

Again valid data for 2005 has been removed. You cannot hide that something very bad is going on in USA this month! The world media (CNN, BBC, AFP) is full of the news of rampages. School, church, courtroom. It is an undisputable fact that two dozen people were killed this way. It is a vain effort to purge info to preserve US public image.[unsigned anon user, same as above]

So I redid the recent data, look at it. One more removal and the case goes to Wiki's Grand Council and the Google, I swear.[unsigned anon user, same as above]

Censorship? Oh for crying out loud. Adding mentions to spree killings is fine and expected, I have no problem with that, but your previous edits were not at all encyclopedic. It was not a question of trying to hide anything, it was a question of what you said being something an encyclopedia wouldn't print. Hopefully you'll calm down now. It would have been amusing to see you try to take it to the "Grand Council" and "the Google" though.DreamGuy22:52, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Does this count?

Is it enough for multiple locations if the murders and the suicide is not done at the same place?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/31/911.call.ap/index.html

Biased/correct vocabulary

>In many countries, the acts of spree killers have been catalysts >for lessening the gun rights of private individuals in the gun politics debate,

This is biased wording. There are no "gun rights" anywhere outside the USA. Some countries of the world allow citizens to keep guns to some degree, others do not at all for diverse reasons. But no country outside USA thinks private gun ownership is in the same category as E=mc^2 or PI=3.14159265359... i.e. undeniable natural truth.

En.Wikipedia is an english-language encyclopedia, not an american encyclopedia and therefore should not use US-biased language. There are 6.25 billion people on Earth and only 300 million of them are Americans.195.70.32.13612:02, 15 February 2006.

While it may be appreciated how some might take issue with or become emotionally upset over the legal right of American citizens to keep and bear arms, there is nothing specifically biased in the statement quoted above, i.e., "In many countries, the acts of spree killers have been catalysts for lessening the gun rights of private individuals in the gun politics debate." This statement is an unbiased fact. Anti-gun lobbyists in other countries do use spree killings as evidence to support their political and social aims. Granted, most documented spree killings occur in the United States, but to the extent that the anti-gun lobby in countries outside the USA do cite such incidents in their efforts to change policy and legislation, the statement can be considered factual.

Such incidents include those perpetrated by AustraliansMartin Bryant(Port Arthur Massacre) andWade Frankum(Strathfield Massacre), ScotThomas Hamilton(Dunblane massacre), EnglishmanMichael Robert Ryan(Hungerford massacre), CanadianMarc Lepine(École Polytechnique Massacre), and New ZealanderDavid Gray(Aramoana massacre). Each of these non-American spree shooting incidents was used by proponents of stricter gun control to further their agendas in their respective countries.

The writer of the "Biased vocabulary" post in this discussion should check his or her facts before publishing biasedAnti-Americanstatements.

Jay Black06:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe the issue here is with the wording of "gun rights". The statement itself is generally true, but it is also a bit emotive. Hopefully the changes I have made are not so contentious. I have also made significant formatting changes to make it more consistent. Also I have removed links to redirect pages and pages about killers that link to the incident they are infamous for. I consider it unlikely that a page will ever be made purely dedicated to the individuals rather than the incidents and therefore have removed the links that are redundant - either because they are red or link to the incident. If anyone objects please do not simply revert but change the specific things that you disagree with.Zarboki13:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The issue here is over one word: rights. User:195.70.32.136 is correct in the fact that America is one of very few nations that recognize the right to keep and bear arms as a fundamental human truth; e.g. enshrined in the constitution. Other countries, like Canada, where I live, allow their citizens to have guns, but it is a privilege, not a right. Saying this is not anti-American. Let's not bicker and argue about gun policy, or succumb to petty name-calling. We're not saying guns should or should not be a right, we're simply stating fact.Rustalot4268414:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It is fallacious to imply that the term "gun rights" necessarily reflects, on the part of the user, the assumption that they are _inalienable_ rights. "Gun rights" is a concept, an idea. One can use the phrase "abortion rights" without believing in them, likewise with "gun rights." Granted, it is sloppy to use this term in such a manner in this article because of the confusion it can cause, and therefore Rustalot's reponse is basically sound. But the first unnamed user is overreacting to the issue at hand, with sarcastic comparisons to the theory of reletavity, motivated by an obvious anti-gun agenda on a discussion page where, by Wikipedia's own rules, it doesn't belong. His comments were indeed anti-American because of the resentment they expressed, not because of their request for accuracy. -- Andrew MacEwen—Precedingunsignedcomment added byDmacewen(talk•contribs)22:29, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Freeway shootings

Do freeway shootings count?Chris00:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if they fit the other criteria; location doesn't come into the definition.Jim Michael(talk)20:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Definition of "spree killer"

If the definition of spree killer is killings attwoor more locations then the people listed here should reflect that.Serial killerhas an unsourced definition of spree killers as people who "commits multiple murders in different locations over a period of time that may vary from a few hours to several days. Unlike serial killers, however, they do not revert to their normal behavior in between slayings."

Having read all of the entries I have removed the entries I fell do not qualify under the current definition. Most of the deleted entries are mass murderers. The ones in which the shootings all occur in the one building are borderline so as a rule of thumb I left the ones that were in more than one room but maybe I was being generous?

Andrew Cunananis an interesting one because under the current definition, his murders do not count as spree killings but they do under the definition inSerial killer(and don't fit that definition of serial killings).

Someone else will have to check out the red linked entries because I'm going to bed Zarboki15:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought I'd check in every so often and I see a few red-linked entries are still there, oh well, I guess that will have to wait until I get home in December.

I just did a little clean-up. There is no point introducing new terms such as lone wolf that are not defined in the intro - especially if they are linked to a disambig page and the most likely link (Lone wolf terrorists) does not actually fit with the example. Also I don't think it is really a competition as to who can get the most killings in a school massacre so changed the wording.Zarboki10:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Two remarks:

a) The media often uses the phrase "spree killer" when randomly murders more than a hand full of people even when there is only one shooting location. The term "mass murderer" in the public mind conjures up the notion of great mass of killings such as a genocide.

b) The FBI legal definition does not apply outside the USA, except possibly in countries where they decided to use a direct translation of the FBI definition in their own law enforcement documentation.S_peakF_ree^(talk)19:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

SF rampage

Should the recent vehicular murder spree byOmeed Aziz Popalgo in here? --Aussie Evil21:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Spree killer vsmass murderer

An expert on TV noted that Cho Seung Hui was a 'mass murderer' not a 'spree killer' because he didn't just 'snap,' he planned this out long in advance.RYoung{^yakł_talk}00:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The amount of planning is irrelevant to whether it counts under the definition of spree. He was not a spree killer because he shot all of his victims at the same location.Jim Michael(talk)20:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, under that definition,Anders Behring Breivikis also not a 'spree' killer, as all of his actual shooting took place in a single location (the bombing occurred elsewhere obviously).Manning(talk)02:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The FBI does not require that the killings occur in more than one location in the application of the term "spree killer": Specifically, "The general definition of spree murder is two or more murders committed by an offender or offenders, without a cooling-off period." (fromhttp://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder). It appears that spree killers are a special case of mass murderers and essentially are the same as rampage killers. The murders are done in a relatively short time, whether in one or more locations. Planning or its absence does not seem relevant. In some cases, one can't know whether in fact there was planning.Gerrymeander(talk)07:01, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Accuracy disputed

The current definition of a spree killer is WAY OFF. A spree killer is aserial killerwhose murders are not spaced over a significant period of time, and who doesn't target any one particular kind of victim. It's like a "serial killer on crack". The characters fromNatural Born Killers,for example, would be "spree killers".Cho Seung-hui,on the other hand, wouldn't qualify as a "spree killer", he would qualify as a "mass murderer". Bueller 007 06:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

1. Spree killeris defined as "a serial killer whose murders occur within a brief period of time."[1]
2. Serial killeris defined as "someone who murders more than three victims one at a time in a relatively short interval."[2]
3. Mass murdereris defined as "a person who is responsible for the deaths of many victims in a single incident."[3]

The definitional information available on Wikipedia on these phrases are mostly incorrect.Seung-hui Chois, by definition, a serial killer who murdered more than three victims, one at a time, in a relatively short interval across two distinct incidents that are labelled, collectively, as theVirginia Tech massacre.Adraeus07:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

No no no. You need better sources than just some online dictionary of no known reliability on the topic if you want to dispute the definitions. Serial killer is spread out beyond 30 days, so a mass murderer (like Cho) and a spree killer are NOT serial killers at all. This is pretty basic information available in a great many sources. (And some could argue that the fact that Cho stopped to make a video and so forth pushed him over from mere mass killer to spree killer, but I'm not going to get into that.) I am removing the tag as totally unwarranted, as I think it's bogus and the people who created the article obviously think you are wrong, so that's consensus right there. If you want to put a fact tag somewhere, fine, but the full on disputed tag is completely unwarranted.DreamGuy06:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, while your definitions were wrong, the article itself was messed up too, so I've reverted the lead back to what it used to say.DreamGuy06:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The serial killer definition in the comment submitted by Adraeus is incorrect in saying 'relatively short interval'; there are often breaks of months or sometimes years between murders.Jim Michael(talk)20:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Spree killing vs. massacre

I've been reviewing the entries inCategory:Massacres in the United StatesandCategory:Spree shootings in the United States.If all the killings were committed in one relatively small area (e.g. a McDonald's or a house), I have categorized the incident as a "massacre". If the killings were in two or more distinct locations, I have categorized those incidents as "spree killings".

However, there are some difficulties. A "school playground" is, in my opinion, a single location and thus a massacre. I think all the killings in theAmish school shootingwere in one location so that is also a massacre. However, is the Columbine High School incident a "massacre" or a "spree shooting"? The high school could be considered one location but the shooting happened across several locations within the high school so I would classify that as a "spree shooting".

Similarly, the101 California Street shootingstook place on two floors so I would classify that as a "spree shooting". However, I could see arguments for considering Columbine High School one location and 101 California Street as one location and thus these would be massacres and not "spree shootings".

Another angle on this question is how an incident should be classified if it takes place in multiple cubicles/offices/areas of a company's office or across multiple areas in a factory such as theStandard Gravure shooting.

In effect, what I'm asking is - How far does a killer have to travel in order to be classified as a "spree killer"? --Richard19:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Spree killers leave and go somewhere else, not a different spot in the same place. Thus two floors of the same building is the same location. Many of the entries in this article are just wrong and need to be deleted... and the people who put them there either need to educate themselves before making any additional edits or should get blocked or something. An encyclopedia is a place for people to get educated, not to take advice from people who don't know what they are talking about.DreamGuy(talk)17:00, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Hours

Is that important to specify in how many hours someone killed how many people? It reads like theGuinness Book of Records.Should be maybe award a prize to the winner? Should not be enough to name just some cases without the details? --192.33.238.6(talk)13:09, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Dnepropetrovsk maniacs

Surely this is an example of serial killing as it took place over a month or so? Cooling off period and all that.—Precedingunsignedcomment added by92.18.15.109(talk)21:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC) This article is somewhat sloppy in its definition of “spree killing”:

1) The spree killer is only one example of a rampage killer. The other kind is the mass murderer, whose murders take place in a single place. 2) Spree killing does not have to take place over a short period of time. It can take place over a period of weeks (Starkweather and Fugate, e.g.) or even months. The defining element of spree murder is motion: the usually condensed time period is incidental to the nature of spree killing, not a defining element. 3) The murders, therefore, can be experienced as separate events if the time frame is long enough and the lapses of time great enough. Not all spree murderers are like Harold Unruh, who committed his outburst of violence in a 13-minute blur. What sets spree murders apart from serial murders are that the former at least cohere into a single, unifying activity. --Andrew MacEwen—Precedingunsignedcomment added byDmacewen(talk•contribs)22:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Reminder to92.18.15.109andDmacewen:

Per the notice at the top of the page, this page is for discussing edits/improvements to the Spree killer page, not for topic discussion.momoricks(make my day)23:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Factually disputed

I just put on a tag on the list because an IP-based anonymous editor is aggressively re-adding entries that are not spree killings, and I bet a bunch of the rest aren't spree killings either. I don't have the time to go look the rest up and delete all the bad ones, especially when somebopdy simply reverts me minutes later on the ones I already deleted.

There's a difference betweenmass murderand spree killings. Anyone who took the time to read the lead of the article would know that, but unfortunately many of the people editing here apparently can't be bothered to learn about the topic before making edits to it.DreamGuy(talk)16:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, I went through and checked all of the examples listed, removing ones that were only mass murders. Since the problem is fixed, I removed the tag.DreamGuy(talk)22:34, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Whole bunch are back I removed a few but I have read enough murder articles for own day.RichFarmbrough,03:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC).

Columbine High School massacre

Where's the Columbine entry???—Precedingunsignedcomment added by67.190.231.194(talk)16:52, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

It was not a spree killing as it was in one location.Jim Michael(talk)20:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

D.C. snipers

People refuse to classify this as a spree killing given the so-calledcooling off periodbetween the attacks. If thiscooling off periodis what separates it from other spree killings, then what makes the Virginia Tech massacre worthy of keeping it's place on this page. Cho killed a few people, went back to his room to videotape himself, then killed some more people. Wouldn't the whole intermission between the killings warrant a cooling off period? If anything, the D.C. snipers are even more worthy of being called spree killers because they were always on the prowl for more victims. Charles Starkweather and Caril Ann Fugate's 1958 killing spree surely had one or twocooling off periodsgiven that it lasted several days. What about the time it took for Jeffery Weise to drive to school after claiming his first two victims? Wouldn't that be acooling off period.People who keep making unnecessary corrections like these need to quit being so snooty.—Precedingunsignedcomment added by68.97.165.30(talk)22:24, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Lane Bryant shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_Bryant_shooting—Precedingunsignedcomment added byGwopy(talk•contribs)03:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

About notability

Is there a limit on how many should one kill, to be notable enought to be mentioned on this page? Would killing 5 and himself do? Added signingAkseli18(talk)00:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Why Howard Unruh, George Banks, and Ronald Gene Simmonswerespree killers

Judging by the definition, spree killers are murderers who's crimes happen at more than one location right? Well,Unruhroamed the streets ofCamdensearching for victims and occasionally entered peoples homes to murder someone. What the hell is that? Sounds like a spree killer to me.George Banksmurdered several girlfriends and children in his home before murdering two neighbors, driving to another house and killing a few more. At the end of the day, Banks had murdered 13 people, five of them family. That is a spree killer.Ronald Gene Simmonsmurdered 14 relatives and drove to his workplace two days later, murdering two co-workers and wounding several others in a shooting spree. That's 16 people in two separate places over the course of three days. Spree killer. Now that I've explained myself can you leave those entries be?

Fort Hood, by definition was a mass murder because it happened in one location: Fort Hood Military Base.

You can remove the Strathfield massacre for all I care, but why'd you remove the Aramoana massacre from the list?

As for the similar cases section I just thought I'd add it for simplicity's sake to provide people with a list of mass murders and shooting sprees that are widely regarded as spree killings.

Any discussion that starts"Wow, what a dumbass"in an edit comment coming from someone who can't be bothered to read the definition of spree killer in the article itself is totally doomed to failure. The first step you need to take before editing again is to learn the difference between mass murderer, serial killer and spree killer. Until you do that you are just spreading ignorance. This is an encyclopedia, not a place for you to make stuff up.DreamGuy(talk)03:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Rampage killer

The British authorColin Wilsonprefers the term rampage killer. The word spree has been carelessly used for decades as its classic definition is "Bit of fun, excursion or other breaking loose from routine..." Since it is none of these for either shooter or victim its use is entirely wrong although so entrenched in the language now its progrees is unstoppable. This does not justify the appalling misuse of the word.—Precedingunsignedcomment added by114.74.146.22(talk)08:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

SPREE: a period, spell, or bout of indulgence, as of a particular wish, craving, or whim: an eating spree; a spending spree. Seems to be used correctly. Colin Wilson will get over it.Go4thAndDie(talk)07:57, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Dunblane massacre

Is there a reason for theDunblane massacre's omission?Salopian(talk)00:33, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

It was amass murdercommitted in a single location - the school gym. A spree killing is one that takes place in at least two different locations with very little "cooling off" period. Hamilton was a mass murder not a spree killer.

True definition of a spree killer

Spree killers are, for lack of a better term, traveling serial killers. There are only a handful of noteworthy examples. Billy Cook, Andrew Cunanan, Paul Knowles and Charles Starkweather are a few that come to mind. Spree shootings that stretch beyond one location are just that, SPREE SHOOTINGS. Not SPREE KILLINGS. I think the true definition of a spree killer is largely misunderstood by the so-calledSerial Killer Task Force.—Precedingunsignedcomment added byQuinton Moad(talk•contribs)21:02, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Spree shootings that kill people are by definition spree killings. Traveling serial killers are just serial killers who traveled, not spree killers. You don't get to make up your own definitions and expect an encyclopedia to follow your own version.DreamGuy(talk)19:13, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

As stated above - The British authorColin Wilsonprefers the term rampage killer. The word spree has been carelessly used for decades as its classic definition is "Bit of fun, excursion or other breaking loose from routine..." Since it is none of these for either shooter or victim its use is entirely wrong although so entrenched in the language now its progress is unstoppable. This does not justify the appalling misuse of the word.— Precedingunsignedcomment added by58.171.245.158(talk)14:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Table sorting

Is there a good reason why the table defaults to sorted by number of deaths? I can't help but be reminded of the Encyclopedia Dramatica term "high score" in this context, and that is definitely a Bad Thing. Perhaps it should sort by date instead?--Nucleusboy(talk)18:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, it was ghoulish and in poor taste. I've changed the default sort to chronological, and renamed "Kill Count" to "Victims Killed".GideonF(talk)12:15, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The Columbine Massacre needs to be listed here

Since this is a page listing murder-suicides, the Columbine Massacre needs to be listed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre

I added the link to that page, but I don't know how to write a good enough article about it, though. --KellyLeighC(talk)01:03, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

This is not a page listing murder-suicides. This is about spree killings. Mass murders in one location do not fit the definition.DreamGuy(talk)19:29, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Incongruent tables

The table of killings doesn't exactly match up with the numbers onhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims#Killing_sprees Which one is more correct? --86.27.43.236(talk)09:46, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre—Precedingunsignedcomment added by76.255.75.28(talk)01:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Is a mass murder not a spree killing.—Precedingunsignedcomment added by86.161.148.199(talk)16:18, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Examples not meeting definition

I once again had to go through and remove a bunch of examples that were listed that in no way met the definition of spree killings. This is not themass murderarticle, so examples of that do not belong here.DreamGuy(talk)20:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Chevvelin Gjurdeff

He is real and we must stop him before he causes this horrible tragedy next year— Precedingunsignedcomment added by67.149.99.154(talk)00:02, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Article format & content

This article looks more like aListclass. It has an introductory lead section, then a list of spree killing incidents. The list should be supplementary to an article on the psychology, motives, history, and common denominators among the incidents and the killers.Boneyard90(talk)10:58, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Columbine/Beltway shooters/Tucson

None are spree, none are even close. Those are the ones I see at a glance, odds are others are mislabeled too. Anybody want to handle that? I'd hate to step on any so-called Wiki "expert" toes. Go4thAndDie(talk)07:52, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

2011 Norway Attacks

Breivik has been arrested, but as of this writing neither indicted nor convicted.kencf0618(talk)03:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Date of year (2011-07-22) and references are missing, and there are abundant news sources, e.g.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356for the shooting spree andhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14252515for the bomb blast. I also suggest that the bombing and the shooting spree should be kept separate until it is confirmed that it is the same person.Frettled(talk)09:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The bombing and shooting spree has been confirmed as connected:http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/07/24/general-eu-norway-explosion_8581407.htmlReillyignatius(talk)17:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The Bath School Massacre

The Bath bombing by Andrew Kehoe has no place on this list. It was NOT a spree killing, it was a bombing. The difference is marked and clear. That incident has absolutely no place on the list, especially considering notable incidents like the Port Arthur Massacre and the actions of Woo Bum-Kon are not even mentioned.99.231.200.55(talk)03:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I know it's been a while since this was posted, but I'll comment. Kehoe killed his family at a separate location immediately prior to the bombing. The two separate incidents that were not separated in time makes this a spree killing.TychaBrahe(talk)22:23, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

2011 Norway attacks 2

Why are they included and not the2008 Mumbai attacks?--Cerejota(talk)07:27, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Mumbai featured a coordinated terrorist attack perpetrated by a terrorist group. While the perpetrator in the Norway massacre may have had terrorist motivation, he better fits the definition of a spree killer because police believe he acted alone.Reillyignatius(talk)17:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Falun shootings in 1994

Missing Mattias Flink's killing spree in Falun in 1994, killing 7— Precedingunsignedcomment added by83.250.152.203(talk)09:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Finnish school shootings

Also missing the two finnish school shootings in 2007 and 2008— Precedingunsignedcomment added by83.250.152.203(talk)09:47, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

"List of high scores"

Someone needs to get rid of that, now.— Precedingunsignedcomment added by68.6.45.174(talk)17:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

make me— Precedingunsignedcomment added by71.233.126.6(talk)17:47, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 84.202.99.59, 23 July 2011

That the "list of high scores" has been allowed to persist truly shows the shameful state of wikipedia editors

84.202.99.59(talk)17:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Not done:please be more specific about what needs to be changed.Jnorton7558(talk)23:54, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Issue tags

I asked an easy question, and got no response, which makes me believe this article, and in particular the list, is not maintained actively, hence the tagging to draw attention to the issued. First, the article does belong in Wikipedia, "spree killer" is both a forensic and a media term, and this is sustained by reliable sources. Second, the list of spree killings seems to be a rather random collection of killing events, in particular because it has no criteria that comes from reliable sources that can be verified. It smells of original research and synthesis.

Third, there would seem to be a number of events missing here, if the event in Norway is included, then Mumbai, and a number of events in Russia must be included.

I hope these issues are addressed in a constructive manner, and if not done in time, we will have to remove unsourced, original research, and synthesis content from wikipedia.--Cerejota(talk)18:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 78.73.38.190, 23 July 2011

Add: Mattias Flink (born March 8, 1970, in Falun, Sweden) is a Swedish spree killer who killed seven people on June 11, 1994, in Falun, Sweden. He was at the time a fänrik in the Swedish Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattias_Flink

78.73.38.190(talk)22:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Not done for now:Is there a name for this incident? Just want to make sure it goes in the table correctly. Change the answered=yes to answered=no when you reply to this.Jnorton7558(talk)07:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

can you [[]] gabby giffords name in the table across from jared lee...

Gabrielle Giffords— Precedingunsignedcomment added byDucksfordollars(talk•contribs)00:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

DoneJnorton7558(talk)02:25, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Reillyignatius, 24 July 2011

Could you please place the Norway massacre at the bottom of the table to keep the list in chronological order?

Reillyignatius(talk)16:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Doneby someone elseJnorton7558(talk)00:48, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Netherlands mall shooting and 2011 Tucson shooting

Both of these sections should be removed because they are not spree killings. If these two are listed, the Fort Hood shootings and many other mass murders should be included as well.Reillyignatius(talk)17:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Norway 2011: Updated Casualty Count

Reuters and the Associated Press, along with multiple other sources, have repeatedly placed the number of dead at 93, with four more likely. Here's just one:http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/24/us-norway-attack-probes-idUSTRE76N25L20110724.Let's try to keep this up-to-date, please. Rapunzel676(talk)00:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 131.107.0.86, 25 July 2011

Norway spree -> 76 dead, from revised numbers. 131.107.0.86(talk)19:44, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Already doneJnorton7558(talk)09:22, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

'New High Score'

Someone really ought to undo the most recent edit to the page. I would do so, but I do not have an account.86.143.127.250(talk)23:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed by someone else alreadyJnorton7558(talk)09:23, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

69 deaths on Utøya

He killed 69 in Utøya, the article on it says it itself

More killings

I added some additional cases which I remembered from my younger years usingList of murderers by number of victimsas a reference. The list may still not be complete.S_peakF_ree^(talk)17:22, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

2011 Norway attacks should be removed

Anders' attack does not count as a spree killing as it was a politically motivated terrorist attack and not any sort of "spree" or "rampage", therefore it should be removed.

There would need to be aWP:CONSENSUSfor this. There have already been numerous debates about the motive for the Utøya shooting, but removing it from the list altogether would be controversial.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}17:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Currently not on list

These should be added as and when time permits:

• Ernst August Wagner,1913, 14 killed
• Patrick Sherrill,1986, 14 killed.
• Ronald Gene Simmons,1987, 16 killed.
• Baruch Goldstein,1994, 25 killed. This is more controversial because of the political/religious element, but is in some ways similar to the Utøya shooting.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}19:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Nepalese royal massacre— Precedingunsignedcomment added by192.171.3.126(talk)09:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Couldn't we just merge the list of Spree killers withList of rampage killers.Then remove the list from this article and link to that list. It saves double work and endless debates about who should be included and who not.S_peakF_ree^(talk)20:15, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

At the moment, theList of rampage killersis more complete and better laid out than this article. There has always been some overlap between spree killings, serial killings and mass murders, and the distinction is not always easy to define. There is a case for merging this article as it has become a content fork that is hard to maintain. Other views welcome.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}07:16, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

OpposeTheList of rampage killerscovers a wider subject than thespree killerarticle. According to thespree killerarticle, “A spree killer is someone who embarks on a murderous assault on two or more victims in a short time in multiple locations.” while mass murder is defined thusly, “the attacks of mass murderers are defined by one incident, with no distinctive time period between the murders.” The article also states, “Another term, rampage killer, has sometimes been used to describe spree killers, but it does not differentiate between mass murderers and spree killers.” So a spree killing is an incident of multiple murder that takes place in more than one location while mass murder is is an incident of multiple murder that takes place in one location while rampage killer is a blanket term for both. TheList of rampage killerscovers both spree killers and mass murderers but the list in the spree killers article should cover only spree killers likeCharles Starkweather,Woo Bum-kon,Martin Bryant,andDerrick Birdwhile mass murderers such asThomas Hamilton,Jared LoughnerandPatrick Sherrillshould be removed. --Millionsandbillions(talk)14:57, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

OpposeThat some editors have a hard time separating the terms can't be used as an argument for merging. If there are any uncertainties about the usage of the term the article will have to be outlined in a better way to clarify its use.PsychoticInquisition(talk)03:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose.And I echo PsychoticInq's sentiments. Just like "mass murderer" deserves its own article, so does "spree killer." The terms serial killer, spree killer and mass murderer are different things, no matter the overlap. The Spree killer article can consist of a lot of scholarly detail and does not have to be regulated to a list.List of rampage killerscan cover "list of spree killers," like it already does, but that article's lists also need to be edited to distinguish mass murderers and spree killers. Preferably by subheadings. Because the way it is now...you can barely tell who is a mass murderer or spree killer.Flyer22(talk)21:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

AgreeThe definitions of rampage and spree are similar, albeit rampage has the negative connotation of out-of-control or violent/inappropriate behavior. "Spree" doesn't. But when you add "killer" to "spree", it is clear that you are talking about essentially the same thing as a rampage killer: A time-limited period of multiple murders. So I think the articles can be combined, although that will take significant work (but probably worth it in terms of subsequent maintenance). I may try it once I find the time. It is worth noting that in the USA at least "spree killer" is the more often used term.Gerrymeander(talk)07:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Gerrymeander, the List of rampage killers is not just covering spree killers. It is also covering mass murderers. Experts generally distinguish these terms. I can see the point in merging this article with that one if all this article will ever be is a list. But like I stated, it shouldn't just be a list and doesn't have to be.Flyer22(talk)19:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I had quite a few heated discussions with other Wikipedians about the actual definition of the term spree killer and I ended up avoiding it entirely, because it simply is so vague that anybody can interpret it to his liking. If you'd ask me what is the distinction between a mass murderer and a spree killer, I'd answer: It's absolutely arbitrary. This arbitrariness might also be the reason why laypersons and experts alike use both terms interchangeably most of the time. That does not mean I am supporting the merge, though. But I'd suggest to cite more reliable sources, maybe add a section about the fact that the term is not always consistently utilized, and finally get rid of the list entirely, because it is too long and can never be anything but a POV mess, because people won't ever agree on a precise definition of the term. (Lord Gøn(talk)21:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC))

Good point and ideas, Lord Gøn. Although I'm not entirely sure that experts use the terms interchangeably most of the time. "Sometimes" is enough to see that there is difficulty in distinguishing, though. I see researchers being a lot more clear in distinguishing serial killers from mass murderers. They have more difficulty distinguishing serial killers from spree killers, yes, but they do distinguish often there as well. And, hmm, that they can distinguish the former easier than the latter either suggests that "mass murderer" and "spree killer" are different enough or that "serial killer" and "spree killer" are similar enough.Flyer22(talk)21:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Agreeand keep this one, it is sortable and does not exclude school killings, the other list is awkward. It cannot be sorted and is broken up by continent so you cannot do a global sort. If you want you can add continent here as a sortable field. Migrate ones there here that are nor represented. We need one master sortable list for comparison. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )(talk)16:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, theList of rampage killersactually is sortable, though apparently somebody couldn't resist tinkering with the sorting feature and now it isn't indicated anymore by those little arrows in columns that are using a different than the default background-colour. The fact aside that I don't see the purpose of a master list that throws everything together into one big block, a list like the one you propose, containing all entries of the List of rampage killers (which consists of about 1000 cases), would probably have a size of several 100kb and therefore be in need of a split itself. And btw, school killings are not excluded from the List of rampage killers, but have anentire sectiondedicated to them. (Lord Gøn(talk)16:02, 13 October 2011 (UTC))

External Link

A user didn't like the link

• Spree Killers(german)

do you agree? --Netpi(talk)06:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

This was removed because it uses the word "Highscore" to rank the killings, which is in poor taste. Also, perWP:EL,the list largely ends up repeating information that is already in this article.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}06:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Seal Beach shooting

The question of whether this is or is not a spree killing is linked to the definition in the lead. Many of the examples in the table would fail this definition as well, eg theSan Ysidro McDonald's massacreor thePozzetto Massacre.Please don't introduce inconsistencies of this kind without reading the talk page debates on this issue first.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}18:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually there is another even more serious problem.WP:BLP.Many of the more recent examples on the list have the person listed as the killer,when some have not even had trials for the murders.WP:BLPis strictly enforced on wikipedia and I am actually surprised that no one has brought this up. We can continue to have a discussions on what is and is not a spree killing, but in the meantime, those violations of the wikipediaBLPpolicy need to addressed now. There is no other way around it.--JOJ^Hutton23:02, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I, for one, looked at the Talk page and didn't see a section on the Seal Beach shootings. The Seal Beach incident doesn't fit the definition, and is not labelled as a spree killing. Looks like a no-brainer to me. Seems people are too eager to jump to a conclusion without first considering the appropriate label. And perhaps the San Ysidro massacre and the Pozzetto Massacreshouldbe removed from the list. I'm ok with that. I also agree that if the suspects haven't been found guilty (or died in the event), then they might need to be removed as well.Boneyard90(talk)08:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

If I had the time, I would beWP:BOLDand merge all of these withList of rampage killers.TheU.S. Bureau of Justice Statisticsdefinition of a spree killer is a guideline, and it would be better to have all of these cases in one place. The alternative is to be bold in this article, and to remove all of the examples that could be seen as failing the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics guideline (eg theSan Ysidro McDonald's massacre.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}09:03, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Until you have time to propose a merger between the two articles, with discussion, then it would be best to adhere to the definitions and distinctions already set down in the articles. If the list needs to be culled, so be it.Boneyard90(talk)09:21, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The article has been proposed for a merger since August 2011, and there is a discussion atTalk:Spree_killer#Merge_proposal.The vote is locked at 4:4, so we may be stuck with deleting the entries that are seen as causing the problem by failing the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics guideline.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}09:36, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Terrorists are not spree killers...dicuss here first then delete them

I notice that someone is adding Palestinian attacks to this list. They maybe spree killings but they are primarily acts of terrorism because there is a political agenda behind them. They are not the work of a lone individual or is killing for an indeterminate personal reason. IMO all attacks labelled as acts of terrorism should be removed from the list as they primarily motivated by political ideologies. They therefore can be explained whereas a "true" spree killer is spontaneous and is doing for themselves without any pre-existing/recognised reason for going on a rampage.— Precedingunsignedcomment added by109.150.225.8(talk)12:51, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:TERRORISTbecomes involved here. Some of the attacks by Palestinian militants may have difficulty qualifying as classic spree killings, because the people involved believed - however misguidedly - that they were doing a political or religious cause some good. TheGreysteel massacrein Northern Ireland in 1993 is also an example of this phenomenon. I am tempted - subject to the obvious potential for controversy - to remove some of the attacks by Palestinian militants that have been added, although theCave of the Patriarchs massacreis an example of an attack of this kind carried out by a Jewish person.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}13:07, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

• TheMatzuva attack,Itamar attack (2002)and2002 Beit She'an attackare more like guerilla attacks than spree killings, while theMercaz HaRav massacrecould be seen as a spree killing. Thoughts from other editors are welcome.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}13:19, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for discussing this point. As an IP all hell would break loose if I made the changes. I am sure this is the same discussion that goes on regardingrampage killers,too. Again the name is too ambiguous. To me it conjures up the psycho, who for no apparent reasons, goes out and kills indiscriminately anyone who unfortunately crosses their path (avoiding being captured for as long as possible) whereas a rampage killer is more concerned with carnage and doesn't care about themselves. Again, it might for all intense and purposes merge both articles to do away with such ambiguities.

The table is an utter mess

Just taking a closer look at the table only reinforces the fact that no one seems to have a consistent and clear idea what a spree killer is. There is one entry regarding the man who drove his car into people at the Dutch Royal parade in 2009. How on earth is that a spree killing? It happened in one place. Likewise under that consideration, what about the psycho Japanese man who drove a van into crowds in Akihabara in 2008, then got out and started stabbing random people? In my view these are rampage killers who are intent on maximum harm. The table is a mess and should be redone with a clear message at the top clearly defining what a spree killer is. In that case:

1. they killed at more than one location
2. there was no "break" time between killings
3. they acted on their recognizance
4. they did not belong/associate with any terrorist faction/organization.

In those respects the Norwegian murderer Anders Brevik was not a spree killer but a politically-motivated terrorist. Others might disagree but until there is a clear point-by-point consensus on whatISa spree killer, this list is going to keep growing with more and more irreverent entries. Eventually, and I have seen happen before on Wikipedia, the whole things becomes trivia. By then it could probably list every killing that ever happened....17:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Cited source for definition of spree killing

The second sentence of this article asserts that the US Bureau of Justice Statistics has a definition for spree killing and cites a local South Carolina newspaper as a source.

However, "spree killing" does not appear on the list ofdefinitionsthe Bureau provides.

A quick Google search shows that the second sentence has been quoted a lot in the past few days, so getting it right seems of value. However, an authoritative definition from US Law Engforcement proves illusive.

Without a good replacement definition, I'll leave it to other who have worked on this page to decide what, if anything, to do about this.— Precedingunsignedcomment added byStannenb(talk•contribs)16:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Thesourcelooks OK, the difference between a spree killing and a serial killing is the lack of a cooling off period. In response to the section above, the difficulty in pinning down spree killings led to the proposed merger withList of rampage killers,but there is no consensus for this.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}18:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Aurora, CO, Theater Massacre

I've removed the addition of this and I will be watching the page all day.— Precedingunsignedcomment added byTychaBrahe(talk•contribs)15:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Can I ask why? I understand the trials are ongoing, but isn't is fact that 12(+) people died?— Precedingunsignedcomment added byBeyondPerception(talk•contribs)17:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

By definition, a spree killing takes places in more than one location. Had the shooter left the theater and shot people on the street outside, or gone to another location to continue killing people, it would qualify. By being confined to a single location, it does not. The alleged shooter is already listed under mass murderers, which more accurately describes this incident.TychaBrahe(talk)17:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think you are making too fine a point of "the more than one location" part of the definition.There are +20,000 news references that refer to the killing as a "spree".That should be enough support to include it in this list.--Nowa(talk)11:46, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not too "fine a point", it's theonlypoint of consequence that separates spree killings from mass murders. One location only means not a spree killer, period. Just because a lot of sloppy journalists and pseudojournalists with blogs call is a spree doesn't mean it is one. Wikipedia has for years had just bloody awful articles on this topic and related topics simply because people are using sources written by people who have no clue what they are writing about and are not even close to being experts on the topic. Wikipedia should be an encyclopedia, not a rehash of the dreck the mass media is putting out.DreamGuy(talk)14:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

You seem to have very strong feelings about this. Why is the distinction between "spree killing" and "mass murder" important?--Nowa(talk)14:26, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

You could just as well ask why the difference between homicide and manslaughter is important. The definition of a spree killer comes from the people who work to understand why people commit such crimes. *They* have determined that there is a difference between mass murders, spree killings, and serial murders, and since this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, where people come getting answers rather than just a body count, the difference should be recognized.24.15.213.209(talk)15:04, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Tycha, DreamGuy, the last AnonIP. Not a spree killing. Doesn't belong in this list.Boneyard90(talk)15:42, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

That was me, sorry. I didn't realize WP had logged me out.TychaBrahe(talk)15:51, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

You’ve convinced me. I took a look for other references that define spree killing and found this interesting paperDeLisi et al, “The Starkweather Syndrome: exploring criminal history antecedents of homicidal crime sprees” Criminal Justice Studies, March 2008It generally supports the academic definition that "spree killing" occurs in two or more locations. --Nowa(talk)17:00, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

We've been through this argument before. Although the media often describes this type of incident as a spree killing, a killing at a single location in a short space of time fails to meet the classical FBI definition, and is a mass murder.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}17:05, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

List of Spree Killings Deleted?

Why was the list of spree killings deleted? It was a major portion of the article and seems to have been done without any discussion as to why the article would be improved without it. In the light of the Aurora shooting I read the entire list and do not feel that there were any incidents that should have been removed for not being spree killings.TychaBrahe(talk)19:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed until now. See the History. An editor deleted it as a "POV mess". It can be re-included without much problem, or should we take this opportunity to put the list on its own page?Boneyard90(talk)19:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The decision to remove the listherewas bold but correct. It had long been overlapping withList of rampage killersand many of the incidents listed here failed the classical definition of a spree killing.--♦IanMacM♦^{(talk to me)}19:45, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Except that the list of rampage killers does not include many that were on the spree killer list, including the Oikos school shooting, the Seattle coffee shop killing, the Grand Rapids, Michigan, shootings, to start with (comparing the spree shooter list with just the Americas lists of mass murders). If the editor felt the list overlapped the other partly, he should have added those that did not to the list.TychaBrahe(talk)03:51, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

As the person who deleted the list here, I can assure you that most of its entries are included in theList of rampage killers.The Oikos University shooting e.g. can be found in the respective section titledschool massacres.The Grand Rapids shooting was mostly a case of domestic violence which means it can be found underhome intruders.The number of cases missing is according to my count six, the reason being, with the exception of the Beltway snipers, that the number of victims in each of them is relatively minor.

May I ask why people think such a long list must be incorporated in the article at all? Even more so as the whole matter of what actually contitutes as a spree killing is rather controversial and debated. As you can see in the passages I have added not even the experts agree in this regard. So, why not keep it short and mention only a few major, but uncontroversial cases in the text? Anyway, I find it pretty clear that the term "spree killer" was never intended to be applied to mass shootings and the like. It was created to describe people like Starkweather or Cunanan who kill one here, one there, all the while trying to escape police, but certainly not for cases where the perpetrator shot dozens of people while moving around, like Howard Unruh or Martin Bryant. (Lord Gøn(talk)13:14, 2 August 2012 (UTC))

This is vandalism to delete list from article List Of Spree Shootings. If someone interests why he is not able to see list? --Obitauri(talk)09:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Obituari has a point. The termList of spree shootingsre-directs to this article. I say re-include the list, even if it is very short and faithful to the definition. According to LordGon, there should be a list of about six.Boneyard90(talk)11:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Rename to "Spree killing"?

Wouldn't that be a better title for this article? (likeMurdereris a redirect toMurder)DexDor(talk)20:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. The article about murder is titled Murder, not Murderer; so your example doesn't register well to me. Similarly, the article about the topic of serial killer is titled Serial killer, as it should be, not Serial killing, and the article about mass murder is titled Mass murder, not Mass murderer. I believe that "Spree killer" is theWP:COMMONNAMEfor this article, meaning that it's used more than "Spree killing."Flyer22(talk)18:17, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Do Armed Citizens Stop Mass Shootings? A history of intervention attempts.

• Do Armed Citizens Stop Mass Shootings? A history of intervention attempts.,Slate, 18 Dec 2012.

This article presents an interesting history, by a mainstream media source, one not known for conservative bias. Cheers.N2e(talk)23:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Information from that article is better suited for theMass murderarticle.Flyer22(talk)23:23, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Template:Globalize

IrevertedtheTemplate:Globalizethat86.185.31.130(talk·contribs·WHOIS)added to the article. This is because, as Template:Globalize states, "This tag should only be applied to articles where global perspectives are reasonably believed to exist (e.g., that people in China have a different view about an idea or situation than people in Germany or South Africa). If additional reliable sources for a worldwide view cannot be found after a reasonable search, this tag may be removed." The term/conceptspree killer,much like the termserial killer,has mostly been studied in the context of American society. The term/conceptspree killeris even more so limited to American society. I'll let the IP know that I've reverted and will point the IP to this section.Flyer22 Reborn(talk)19:56, 9 April 2017 (UTC)