Talk:Sverdlovsk, Ukraine

Russia vs Ukraine

ISTM that this is supposed to be an article about Sverdlovsk, Ukraine, 45°29′N 33°56′E. An anonymous user has moved the intro to the end, subheaded it "Sverdlovsk, Ukraine", and put a heading "Sverdlovsk, Russia" at the top, above the "History" section which (I believe) refers to Sverdlovsk, Ukraine - at any rate, it has little in common with the corresponding section at Yekaterinburg.

Any good reason not to revert?

I did revert the user's first attempt to move the intro to the end, but the edit was repeated. I don't think it's vandalism, so I'm reluctant to re-revert without some input from more experienced editors. FJPB 11:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the anons edits. We should not keep two articles merged together like (Sverdlovsk including section Sverdlovsk (Russia) and Sverdlovsk (Ukraine), but rather let each subject have their own articles. —dima/s-ko/ 20:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Regardless the discussion below, I don't know who is right or wrong, please edit the coordinates for this article so that it is not placed in central Crimea. I've checked on maps and there are certainly no major place named Sverdlovsk there. 87.227.68.18 13:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Per Nelvig

im not satisfied with this article becasue it does not say what the land area or surface area of this city is at least it has a population figure—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.159.55 (talk) 03:18, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

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Requested move 3 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. I have created redirects from Dovzhansʹk and Dovzhans'k to this article. Dekimasuよ! 17:23, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

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Sverdlovsk, Luhansk Oblast → Dovzhansʹk – Following the 1919 death of Russian Revolution figure Yakov Sverdlov, two Soviet places were renamed Sverdlovsk — in Russia, Yekaterinburg, currently the country's 4th-largest city, and, in Ukraine, the farmland referenced as Dovzhykove-Orlovske (Sharapkyne). In 1991, the name of the Russian Sverdlovsk was returned to Yekaterinburg, but the name of the Ukrainian Sverdlovsk remained until 2016 when the Ukrainian government renamed it Dovzhansʹk. It is currently Ukraine's 63rd-largest city. Just over half of the 31 Wikipedias which carry the entry for the Ukrainian city have changed their main title headers to Dovzhansʹk or Dovzhansk and the other Wikipedias have kept it as "Sverdlovsk". A unilateral attempt in 2016 to change the name to Dovzhansk in English Wikipedia had been reverted. It may be also noted that a similar proposal at Talk:Kirovsk, Luhansk Oblast#Requested move 12 April 2018 was closed as "no consensus to move".    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:12, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support. The city of Dovzhansʹk has been renamed to, "Dovzhansʹk" since 2016 and that's the official English name going forward. Given that small cities almost never get mentioned in English-language media, it would be wrong to use "usage of "Dovzhansʹk" on Google or the like in order to validate that English usage of this term is prevalent - there's simply no English usage for this city, period (because no English language media ever mention it). Given this, the article should be renamed per the new, post 2016 official name. ps. Be cautious when simply "googling" the old name of the city "Sverdlovsk" - there's a region (state) in Russia with the same name, which will probably cause Google to provide 99.9% of it's searches for that toponym. --Piznajko (talk) 00:03, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support as a move to the new official name after Decommunization.Miacek (talk) 09:43, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per discussion at Talk:Kirovsk, Luhansk Oblast: Sverdlovsk is not under the control of Ukrainian central government and there is no evidence that anyone else uses the name proclaimed by it. The "officialdom" of this name is therefore strongly disputed, since the entity that does not effectively control the area hardly has a decisive say what its name should be. For one, their football club prominently call themselves Шахтер Свердловск [1]; can't find any other local websites at the moment. No such user (talk) 11:51, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Analogous to the general details regarding this matter being discussed in the previously-mentioned RM, Dovzhansʹk is legally within the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine and, therefore, the government of Ukraine does indeed have a decisive say what the city's name should be. As for the name of the city's football club, Wikipedia's main title header for the football club located in Ukraine's capital is the club's Ukrainian name, FC Dynamo Kyiv (ФК «Динамо» Київ), not its Russian name, FC Dynamo Kiev (ФК «Динамо-Киев»).    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:56, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per User:Piznajko (sic). The name should follow sources, but since such small places typically don't appear much in English-language sources, the title should follow the pattern of larger cities in the region that are covered. In this case, we have the example of Kirovsk, Luhansk Oblast whose title was recently discussed here. The result of the discussion was to keep the original title. NB WP:OFFICIALNAMES. —  AjaxSmack  22:12, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support Dovzhansk (with no '). It's difficult to parse Google News results given all the other Sverdlovsks out there, but it's clear that since the WP:NAMECHANGE, and even before, English sources are using Dovzhansk.[2][3] This source notes that the city was "formerly known as Sverdlovsk". Given that the name change has indeed happened, I don't see the reason to keep the former name.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:58, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm really not seeing enough evidence here to say we should move this one. Cuchullain has found three sources above (one of which was from 2014, before the rename), but as far as I can see those are not representative of a wider body, but pretty much the *only* sources using that name in English. On the flip side, there is also a separate 2017 source also from the Kyiv Post, which uses Sverdlovsk. Ultimately, if the people in the region actually called it Dovzhansk, that would sway it, but given the area is occupied and probably primarily Russian-speaking, I'm going to say let's leave it as is per the consensus reached at Kirovsk, Luhansk Oblast.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:28, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment: At the risk of mounting my familiar high horse, all but one of the above arguments supporting a move are entirely based on non-English sources and primary sources, typical of when an official name in a non-English-speaking area has changed but the common English name has not. I do (belatedly) note the sources cited by Cuchullain. Line call now IMO. Andrewa (talk) 16:09, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kirovske, Donetsk Oblast which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 7 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus that "Ukraine" is sufficient disambiguation, which was the focus of this discussion. There was enough opposition to the alternative, Dovzhansk that it will not move there at this time. However, there is no prejudice against a subsequent RM proposal should there be enough evidence to back it up (though this discussion and the one above suggest that such a proposal would require significant evidence supporting it). (closed by non-admin page mover) -2pou (talk) 19:01, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

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Sverdlovsk, Luhansk Oblast → Sverdlovsk, Ukraine – It's the only one in Ukraine, no need to disambiguate via oblast. HappyWith (talk) 23:07, 6 November 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). 2pou (talk) 18:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

• See Sverdlovsk Oblast. Best, Reading Beans (talk) 08:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
• @HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith and Reading Beans: Courtesy pings on queried technical request. -2pou (talk) 18:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Reading Beans I don't understand the objection. Sverdlovsk Oblast is in Russia, not Ukraine. HappyWith (talk) 18:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

  I didn't understand your request at first though. I'm sorry for objecting. Best, Reading Beans (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

  All good, this should probably go thru anyway. Not like it needs to happen super fast. HappyWith (talk) 19:44, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. English Wikipedia main title headers delineating Ukrainian places indicate them as standalone names unless disambiguation is needed, thus requiring the addition of parenthetical qualifier "(Ukraine)" — Bucha, Ukraine; Kalush, Ukraine; Khmelnytskyi, Ukraine; Lyman, Ukraine; Nikopol, Ukraine; Novomoskovsk, Ukraine; etc. As for the continued use of the name "Sverdlovsk", see Talk:Sverdlovsk, Luhansk Oblast#Requested move 3 May 2018, above. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:57, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

  I might also propose a move to Dovzhansk after this RM has concluded, if I can find good evidence to support it. HappyWith (talk) 21:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:54, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Move to Dovzhansk. The name has been current for seven years and is mandated per WP:MODERNPLACENAME. It is in current use as evidenced by G Books Search,[4] G Scholar,[5] and G News.[6] It is used in references recommended in WP:WIAN: GNIS[7] gives the name Dovzhansk, alternate names Imeni Sverdlova, Selo Imeni Sverdlova, and Sverdlovsk; Google Maps uses Dovzhansk;[8] and Apple Maps uses the label Dovzhans'k[9] (but also shows a pin nearby if you search for “Sverdlovsk, Ukraine”).

Anyway, natural disambiguation is preferable to adding a disambiguation tag, per WP:NCDAB and WP:PLACEDAB, adding weight to the above.  —Michael Z. 18:47, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support moving to Sverdlovsk, Ukraine; strongly object moving for Dovzhansk as the name is not in use. I explained this already in detail several dozen times in other requests and I do not feel I should do it again.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

  You mean not in use by Russia and its occupation forces in Ukraine? I would presume WP:OFFICIALNAMES applies to that as well as official use by Ukraine. Use in English-language reliable sources is what matters. Or do you mean use by the victims of Russia’s occupation, who live in fear of deportation, torture, and murder for expressions of Ukrainian nationality?  —Michael Z. 23:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Sverdlovsk, Ukraine. About Dovzhansk, seeing some more stats would help but with the last discussion above, I'd lean against. Cheers, Dan the Animator 22:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Occupation in lead

@Mattia332 Per MOS:LEAD, the lead of an article is supposed to summarize the key points of an article. I added in sentences describing the Russian + proxy occupation and the concurrent human rights abuses, but you removed these, citing "NPOV". Can you explain which parts specifically are problematic, or tell me how you would prefer the topic to be covered? I don't want to just get into a revert war. HappyWith (talk) 04:13, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Hello, I believe this is part of a broader issue with Wikipedia's lack of neutrality regarding the Ukraine-related topics. For instance, describing a town as "occupied by proxy" introduces bias by aligning with a pro-Ukraine narrative, especially when discussing contentious issues like reported human rights abuses that were only reported by Western, clearly pro-Ukrainian news sources. I suggest steering away from such biased language and, instead, either presenting both perspectives or adopting a more impartial tone, such as stating, "Since 2014, it has been part of the LPR." This is just an example though, and should be phrased better, I appreciate your attention to this matter Mattia332 (talk) 12:17, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the response, but reliable sources actually do describe the territories of the "LPR" and "DPR" as "Russian-occupied since 2014" (example) and have described the "peoples republics" themselves as "Russian proxies" (1) (2), so I think it is warranted to describe them as such in the article. Reliable sources take a "pro-Ukrainian stance" because those actually are the facts on the ground. HappyWith (talk) 16:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I've re-added the passage about the occupation to the lead with slightly different wording, and added explicit citations to the body stating the LPR was a Russian proxy. If you have further objections, reply to this message. HappyWith (talk) 16:12, 18 November 2023 (UTC)