Talk:First Punic War

Untitled

The Phoenicians lacked the population or necessity to establish large self-sustaining cities abroad, and most of their colonial cities had fewer than 1,000 inhabitants, but Carthage and a few others developed larger populations because of interbreeding with the berbers thus creating the Punic language THAT IS A MIX OF BERBERS AND PUNIC. WHY ARE YOU RASICT TRYING TO UNDERPLAY THE PART OF NUMIDIANS WHO WHERE CALLED THE BEST SOLDIERS IN THE WORLD BY THE ROMANS. PLEASE CONTROL THIS BULSHIT.— Precedingunsignedcomment added by178.85.214.102(talk)17:29, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

A line inLand Warfareneeds editing but I can't decide what the paragraph intends. The line is:

"To the end of the conflict (249 BC), Carthage sent general Hamilcar Barca (Hannibal's father) to Sicily."

This should read either

1. "Towards the end of the conflict,..." i.e. just pointing out the timeline;

or

2. "To end the conflict,...", i.e. implying that Carthage's action was intended to stop the conflict.

--Air10:00, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

Panormus was conquered in 254, and not in 251.

moved comment by anonymous editor.Wandalstouring08:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Barca and Ships

Air

The Edit on Barca is fine "toward the end...",” to end the conflict "would suggest rather more decisiveness then Carthage ever showed.

I would like to see the ship crew number (in the casualties section) altered; it’s wildly out of touch with reality. A 5th century Athenian Trieres would have had about 170 crewmembers, and the Athenians were famous for deploying only a skeleton crew of marines. The standard ship-of-the-line for both Rome and Carthage was a Quinquereme (or Penteres), The crew of which could range from 300 to over 400 (in any case much more then 100).

conon394

Reverted edit

I have revertedthis editby a user who has a history of hoa xing. Please check if it's correct.Conscious12:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

CheckPolybius' historyon the matter. It looks correct -Vedexent12:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually - it should be 3200or1000 extra talents, not both. -Vedexent12:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Corrected factual errors in "Beginning" section

The initial power struggle in Sicily involved attempts by Syracuse and Carthage to dominate the northeast portion of the island, including Messina. Hiero of Syracuse first attacked before he was elected tyrant, and Carthage intervened to prevent the victory of their rival. Messina turned to Rome later, hoping for more reliable protection. The prior text merged the separate assaults of Hiero and confused the dates.

--StephenMacmanus10:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The third treaty between Rome and Carthage should be quoted.Wandalstouring14:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Copy Paste

The background section is basically a copy paste of this sitehttp:// crystalinks /punicwars.htmlCiriii22:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

and contains major errorsWandalstouring15:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

the indicated site, however, is a copy of Wikipedia - and not the other way round --217.229.94.14916:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Under the sea incorvii

I base the 270/100K number on Dupuy; he, however, puts it in 256.Trekphiler00:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

games

Really niece someone made pictures about these events, but it is too obviously based on a game and very much from a Roman perspective. In the last image "end game" is not really needed. Source these images please.Wandalstouring20:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Images

i threw on the GFDL statement for the images. I am a little new to this whole thing. I made the images, with info from Lazenby's book. He did not do the analysis, just listed when events happened. Is my listing correct?

OK, first of all sign your comments with four ~ (like this ~~ ~~, but without the space. It is converted into your signatureWandalstouring11:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC))

Your listing seems OK so far, I didn't read Lazenby's book. An important site and event is missing for example, Mount Eryx, where a very rich temple and a fortress stood. Both fell into Roman hands when the Gallic garrison switched sides. It is a major event, for its strategical importance and the cultural importance of the temple, as well, as the financial for Rome. Furthermore you could add some info on the sieges of Agrigent, Panormus and Lilybaeum. For the battles at land and sea it would be a nice idea to use smaller signs, like crossed swords and give perhaps commanders and troop numbers.

Major Problem:You needed a map to create these images. where is the map of Sicily from? The point is, this is a derivate work, but as long as the original work has some copyrights reserved, these apply to all its derivates. In conclusion you are not allowed to publish this on wikipedia if the legal owner of the original work did not allow its free use in public domain.Wandalstouring11:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I created the map of Sicily myself. It is an outline of the island, with modern roads (to show approximate transit areas). The maps did not come from Lazenby. Were the maps what you were refering to as 'derivative work', or the text in general?Birdman9307:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Main problem was the map itself, as long as you do not quote Lazenby word for word there is no copyright issue, just mention him in the image description as your source: this map is based on Lazenby blabla.

(there are othe historians, who would tell the events differently, so you make the POV clear)

The header "End game" in the last map is still required to be changed.Wandalstouring16:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will make the changes. Give me a day or 2; I am off to work now, but will try to get it done tonight.Birdman9309:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The Actuall Army

I would quite like to know what the army actually consisted of. Mercenaries and ect. But I think that they should the battles in better details.Like the actuall units

We lack quite a lot of information for this and have only reports from their respective opponents.Wandalstouring13:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Some notes about the First Punic War

Livy [1.19]... "Thinking that the ferocity of his subjects might be mitigated by the disuse of arms, he built the temple of Janus at the foot of the Aventine as an index of peace and war, to signify when it was open that the State was under arms, and when it was shut that all the surrounding nations were at peace. Twice since Numa's reign has it been shut, once after the first Punic war in the consulship of T. Manlius, the second time, which heaven has allowed our generation to witness, after the battle of Actium, when peace on land and sea was secured by the emperor Caesar Augustus."...Wandalstouring19:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Deleted doubtful general "Bostzer"

I suspect this person doesn't exist. Besides the fact that his name just looks wrong for a 3rd century BC Carthaginian, I can't find any independent references for him. Other than mirrored copies of this article, the only reference I did find is from the "Spotlight on Games" website which includes military games. I don't think it counts.;-)

If anyone knows a reliable source for this guy, feel free to restore him to the list.

StephenMacmanus09:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

There exists a general Bostar, he is famous for being extremely stupid and giving away the hostages held at Sagunt(Polybious). Possibly this is his name in a non-English spelling.Wandalstouring19:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Rick Heli20:52, 12 September 2016 You can find a mention of Bostar inHannibal's dynasty: power and politics in the western Mediterranean, 247-183 BCby Dexter Hoyos, p. 16.— Precedingunsignedcomment added byRick.heli(talk•contribs)03:51, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Demagogues

So, could anyone explain why "incompetent leaders" was reverted to "demagogues"? Nobody understands this expression in this context, and furthermore it has got a negative connotation. --217.229.68.14722:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

demagogues is totally out of place. bad leaders is questionable, shit happens in war and even generals like the later Hannibal were almost wiped out because someone made an error, so I will rephrase it to 'bad weather and unfortunate tactical dispositions before battle'.Wandalstouring18:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfinished Sentence

In the section "Beginning", this sentence isn't finished:

Most likely unwilling to see Carthaginian power spread further over Sicily and get too close to Italy, Rome responded by entering into an alliance with (?)

Isn't it supposed to be "the Mamertines"?—The precedingunsignedcomment was added by74.103.2.8(talk)03:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

the whole sentence needs a source because no ancient writer tells us about such motives.Wandalstouring07:27, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:Punic Warsvs.Category:First Punic War

Category:First Punic Waris itself a category withinCategory:Punic Wars.—Robert Greer(talk)15:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

BC to BCE

Hello to everyone!I believe that the date style in this article should be changed from the Christian centeredAD-BCsystem to theBCEireligious system. Since both systems denote the same years it is just a matter of adding an "E" to every "BC" in the article. A small change in practice but a very important one in that this way the article doesn't take a religious stance (for example, the articleJesusdoesn't refer to the person as "Our holy lord" ).Pleaseadd your take on the subject so that we may reach the consensus needed to either stay with the current version or switch to the Commen Era one. --Macarenses(talk)14:11, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Oppose.You may need to reviewWP:ERA,although I was under the impression that it once said you had to keep the convention with which the article began. I've recently argued for an era change on "substantial reason" grounds (here,if you'd care to see this tempest in a teapot), but I don't find any in this case. Your argument that "it's Christian-centric" is slender: even if you change the abbreviations, you're still using the birth of Christ as the hypothetical "zero year," thus it's still Christian-centered. This is just historical fact, and it causes no misperceptions (not like, say, the Christian-centric practice of calling Cicero a "pagan," which is something that didn't exist in the 1st century BC, at least not in the sense intended, and grossly misinforms as to what Cicero's religious practices were). Besides, you'd be surprised how many people think "CE" stands for "Christian Era."Cynwolfe(talk)15:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Aftermath

The article is not clear if the money asked by the Romans was 2200 talents of gold or silver or what. Other important consequence not mentioned is that Carthage invaded Iberia short after in order to extract metals and pay the enormous indemnization. And important also, having control of important silver mines in Iberia, the Punics felt themselves powerful enough to destroy Rome and start the Second Punic War. Something similar happened in the XX century when the Germans took the indemnization issue as an excuse to revenge in other war.—Precedingunsignedcomment added by64.134.125.189(talk)15:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your Comment! the matter has been addressed.--Macarenses(talk)09:34, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

different theories

At least from what I´ve read now about the beginnings of the conflict, there is not much mention about different theories, much of the text seemingly following the account Polybius very closely. Authors before me seemingly didn´t even find it necessary to insert an "according to Polybius", or the like. I dont´think that it is sufficient to mention a source as such only in the citations, when the accuracy of that source is actually a matter of considerable scientific debate. --Mike F2(talk)16:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Beginning every sentence with "according to" or some other caveat simply doesn't read well. Most of the article is sourced to Polybius for the same reasons most of the Peloponnesian War article (which I took no part in) is sourced to Thucydides. Nobody says they are infallible, but they are the most thorough historians we have on the subjects, and a lot closer to the events then some revisionist professor living in the early 21st century. If there is another writer from the period with a different theory then that can be added, or if (and I don't know if the article already does this) someone wanted to add a statement about "most of what we know comes from..." that would be fine too. TheBattle of Marathonarticle (much of which is sourced to Herodotus, who was hardly perfect) has a "sources" section where the issues are discussed. But again, in the interest of readablity, an inline citation is generally sufficient.AlexiusHoratius18:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd say you both have a point. There are indeed some classics articles that seem based only on ancient sources, but this one includes modern secondary sources, so that does address Mike F2's concerns at least in part. Alexius notes that for stylistic elegance you can't start every sentence with "according to Polybius," and I do think a footnote is adequate, with an introductory sentence such as Alexius suggests ( "Polybius is the main source" or such). The solution, if one is needed, is for Mike F2 to introduce scholarship that provides different perspectives on Polybius's narrative. When I see footnotes divided between ancient and modern secondary sources, as these are, I assume (perhaps optimistically) that the ancient sources have already been "filtered" through the scholarship. So it would be a matter of ensuring balance in presenting the scholarly interpretations available.Cynwolfe(talk)18:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I really don´t think that in this case it is sufficient to put the sources in the citations only. There is, indeed, no need put it in every sentence; I didn´t do that, as you will see, but only put it at the beginnings of paragraphs. I also find it, to say the least, a bit odd what AlexiusHoratius says here:Nobody says they are infallible, but they are the most thorough historians we have on the subjects, and a lot closer to the events then some revisionist professor living in the early 21st century.Well, that´s your opinion. Modern histporians, by contrast, make their living out of comparing ancient sources (there are more than only Polybius, as you probabaly know), and, especially, in interpreting and criticizing them and trying to work out a plausible version. And I do think that wikipedia articles don´t aim at giving the views of wikipedia authors, but the views held by the scientific commmunity. Of course, we shouldn´t repeat the same mistake by giving the view of one modern historian and selling that practically as the genuine truth by putting it only in the form of, seemingly, matter-of-fact-statements, as was the case before my editing was done, and is still the case in other parts of the article. The solution must be, for the time being, that we need to make clear from the text for every reader that the version to be read here is one version; in time, we should add additional material, so as to point out some of the more important versions discussed by historians then and now. __Mike F2(talk)19:21, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I want to add that a citation does not imply that there are different versions discussed by scientists; of course, if something is generally considered as a matter of fact, such as “Hitler started WWII in September of 1939” to take an easy example, it can be stated this way, and the source can be given in the citations only. But, if there is considerable scientific debate on a topic, and that holds true for the Punic Wars (mainly since they occurred much longer ago than WWII, and we therefore have much less surviving sources) it is necessary to point that out to the reader somewhere (and if it is only once in special section of the article, but I don´t find that practical). O course, you needn´t necessarily mention the name of the author you are following, you can just put it like “one version is…” or something like that, but when the source is Polybius, I find it more appropriate to name him, since he is considered a very important source on the topic. --Mike F2(talk)19:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

If there are other classical sources or more recent theories that aren't essentially one modern historian's opinion then by all means add them. It certainly is not my belief that Polybius is the gospel and everything else is suspect. (My cynicism about modern theories comes mostly from seeing far too many works with some sort of socio-political bone to pick...if I had a nickel for every time I've read the phrase "race, class, and gender" I'd be set.) But of course there are excellent and neutral modern historians as well. Nobody's saying they can't be used.AlexiusHoratius19:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, then maybe I got you wrong; sorry for that. And maybe I´ll add something, if I find time (I really would like to), but for the time being, I would suggest we leave my phrases "according to Polybius" and stuff? To make my poit a bit clearer, I give you just one example: In the case of my deleted “If one follows Polybius” – for example, it is said there that the Mamertines had thrown them out of their city; other ancient historians claimed that there was some Roman named Claudius (apparently not the Roman commander, but a namesake) who went to Messana ahead of the army and “tricked” (I think it was put this way) the Carthaginians into leaving the city. My source on that is Hoyos, B.D.: Unplanned Wars. The Origins of the first and second punic wars, de gruyter, Berlin/New York 1998. --Mike F2(talk)19:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

(Just a passing insert); yes, that's close to my own reasoning on how "according to..." should be used.Haploidavey(talk)20:34, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Nothing to apologize for - I can see how my original statement could be read as "Modern historians suck", which wasn't my intention. I think the consensus that we can all agree on is that classical sources are fine so long as they are used through the proper neutral/modern prism, and modern theories are fine so long as we aren't violatingWikipedia:Undue weight (sources).AlexiusHoratius20:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

To anyone who unerstands Geman I recommend to also read the German article on this topic; there is somewhat of a real discussion to be found in the section about the causes of the war, although by no means a comprehensive one, and maybe also a bit biased in some points, but it´s better then nothing, I would say. --Mike F2(talk)20:16, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

264 BC map error

I noticed that the map in the info-box has Carthago Nova in Hispania Ulterior. The map is titled for 264 BC, but Carthago Nova wasn't founded until 227 BC (seeCartagena). In case that's a mistake, I erased the name and city marker in GIMP. There was (possibly) a town known asMastiathere prior to Carthago Nova, and I could edit that in there if it seem's more correct. I've uploaded a new version of the map here:

Besvo(talk)04:38, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I decided to make the edit based on the "be bold" principle.Besvo(talk)00:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Upgrade planned

Greetings to the contributors and watchers of this article. It seems to have languished as B class for some time and I feel that it deserves better. I am intending to give it a major overhaul, and hopefully get it to FA. Having recently seenBattle of Cape Ecnomusto FA and with two other battles from the war on their way through the assessment process, I feel that I have some idea of what I am doing.

Obviously, this being Wikipedia, I am hoping that other editors will freely step in to make this article as high quality as we can. Regards.Gog the Mild(talk)23:12, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

How large was the Roman army?

Gog the Mild:you added the detail of the Romans losing 384 ships and 100,000 men. How large was the total Roman force? I realize it probably fluctuated quite a bit, given how long the war lasted, but it would be helpful to have a general description of the size of the forces for comparison. (100,000 men sounds like alotof soldiers for antiquity, but I never had a great sense of the scale of some of these things.) —Emufarmers^(T/C)09:02, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

HiEmufarmers.The sources are a bit vague, and don't agree (how many of the captured ships were fit to sail, etc); but I will see what I can come up with. One modern historian reckons that the 100,000 men lost was over, possibly well over, 10% of the male population of military age of Roman-controlled Italy. But just the one, and it seems a bit speculatively off-topic, so I didn't include it.

I am hoping to take this through to FAC over the next six months or so, so if there are any other areas where information seems to be missing, or just anything else at all, do shout out.Gog the Mild(talk)11:48, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your responsiveness,Gog the Mild!I actually sawyour Signpost pieceyesterday and glanced at your contributions because I was curious; this article caught my eye, and I'm glad you've directed your attention (and clearly considerable skills) here.

I just have trouble imagining how Rome could replace such a catastrophic loss of troops.Roman army of the mid-Republicmentions that they relaxed the recruitment requirements during theSecondPunic War; were they forced to do the same here? Is the 100,000 figure derived by modern historians from multiple sources, or is it just a figure mentioned by Polybius (of which we should perhaps be skeptical)? —Emufarmers^(T/C)21:09, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

HiEmufarmers.Polybius, but no particular reason to doubt him. Crew of a quinquereme: 300 plus up to 120 marines. 350 quinqueremes = 115,000–147,000. Less casualties at Cape Hermaeum, plus soldiers and prisoners rescued, plus however many Carthaginian prisoners from the 114 quinqueremes captured. So probably conservative. Rome is calculated to have lost around 1,000 ships during this war; plus army casualties. In the Second Punic War Rome lost over 300,000 soldiers KIA; plus wounded, prisoners, died of disease etc. It earned its reputation the hard way. Also, see my FACBattle of Drepana:after the Roman defeat, the losing general's sister became infamous when, obstructed in a street blocked by poorer citizens, she wished aloud that her brother would lose another battle so as to thin the crowd.

There is still work to do on this, but I am hoping to get it into GAN tomorrow or Wednesday to get some other eyes on it. Let me know if you fancy reviewing it.

"clearly considerable skills" - nah, I'm just a content hack. Happily the Wikipedia format is ideal for other people to cover up my deficiencies.Gog the Mild(talk)22:49, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Gog the Mild:I hadn't heard that story about Claudius's sister, but I do remember his encounter with the sacred chickens from one of my classes. Of course, I always get him mixed up withClodiusandhisnotorious sister.With how interested the Romans were in history, you'd think they could have done future historians a favor by coming up with a few more names.:-)

I'd be happy to give it a full read-through when you're ready. I skimmed bits of it earlier and saw a couple minor typos, but I wasn't going to touch them until you were finished. —Emufarmers^(T/C)06:34, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

HiEmufarmers.This is Wikipedia - feel free to correct my rubbish spelling, grammar and MoS at any time. Anyway, it is now at GAN. If you would like to assess it I would be grateful. If not, do feel free to give it a thorough proof read and/or copy edit. In any event, would you mind if I ran a couple of issues/queries past you?Gog the Mild(talk)03:11, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Gog the Mild:I haven't done GAN reviewing before, but I'm willing to give it a try. And feel free to run anything you'd like by me. —Emufarmers^(T/C)05:50, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Emufarmers:If that was an offer to review this article, then you may, or may not, find it useful to cut and pastethisinto the review page as a checklist.Gog the Mild(talk)13:32, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild:Okay, will do. —Emufarmers^(T/C)04:24, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review istranscludedfromTalk:First Punic War/GA1.The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer:Hog Farm(talk·contribs)02:19, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Lead

"the two main powers of the western Mediterranean" - Should we indicate a time frame for this dominancy, like "ancient western Mediterranean" or throwing in the century?

I think that I was taking it as read that a reader would understand "at that time", with the period being given earlier in the sentence. I could add "at the time" to the end, or "in the early 3rd century BC". What do you think?

I'd be fine with either in this case, I probably make a lot of unnecessary suggestions in my GA reviews just to throw ideas out there.

That's fine. If I don't like your suggestions, I can always say so. Done.

"At the Battle of Cape Ecnomus they were again beaten" - not 100% clear which army "they" is referring to.

Clarified.

"but not believing they could hold it, they razed and abandoned it." - Can this get rephrased so that it is not used twice in quick repetition?

Done.

"Next year they lost another 150 ships to a storm" - Possibly "The next year..." would be better.

Done.

"The Treaty of Lutatius was signed by which Carthage paid large reparations and Sicily was annexed as a Roman province." - The first part of this sentence reads a bit weird to me, but I'm not entirely sure what's wrong ( "was signed by which Carthage" reads funny to me).

Split the sentence: "TheTreaty of Lutatiuswas agreed. By its terms "

Sources

"The modern historian Anne Curry considers" Polybius turns out to [be] fairly reliable "." - Is considers the best word here, it makes the tense feel a little weird.

Changed to "believes".

Background

"Carthage... on at least one occasion used their navy to ferry" - Is Carthage and their the correct case matching here? My instinct would be to match Carthage with it (referring to the city) and to use their for Carthaginians. However, I'm not the greatest at grammar, so you may be correct here.

No it's not and your instinct is correct. Thanks for catching it.

Armies

"They all carried short thrusting swords: in addition the front rank carried two javelins..." - I'm not sure that the colon is the best option here.

Rejigged the whole sentence. See what you think.

"also employedwar elephants;African forest elephantswere "- Can you fix theMOS:SEAOFBLUEhere?

It's not - there is an interposing semi colon. But rephrased anyway.

Sicily

"The Romans had an inadequate supply system, partly because the Carthaginian naval supremacy prevented them from shipped supplies by sea, and were not in any case accustomed to feeding an army as large as 40,000 men" - Something here's not quite right. Maybe add they to make "and they were not in any case"?

Done.

HiHog Farmand thanks for taking this on. I realise that it is a bit of a biggy. Your comments to date all addressed above.Gog the Mild(talk)17:31, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Comment on headings- We have two sections namedSicily,would it be possible to change one of them?

Fixed.

Rome builds a fleet- So quinqueremes means "five-oared", not "five oared ship" or something like that? I'm not familiar with Latin, and you seem to be, so I'll trust that this is correct but I just want to make sure.

My Latin is poor, but quin = five; que = of; reme = oar. The "ship" is implicit - what else would have oars? Anyway, it's sourced, so if I'm wrong, it's not my fault.

"A quinquereme carried a crew of 300: 280 oarsmen and 20 deck crew and officers;[69] it would also normally carry a complement of 40 marines;[70] if battle was thought to be imminent this would be increased to as many as 120." - This is a lot of clauses in one sentence. Would it make sense to you to break it into two sentences between ref 69 and the next word?

Sure. Done.

"Boodes ships attacked" - Should this be "Boodes' ships attacked"?

It should!

"In 257 BC there was a typical chance encounter." - This seems like an odd way to introduce a notable battle.

Several medium-sized naval clashes were accidental encounters, but I have removed the offending phrase.

Invasion of Africa

You refer to Hanno the Great and Hamilcar mustering the Carthaginian fleet against the Romans. Are you referring toHamilcar (Drepanum)orHamilcar Barca?They were both active in this war.

Hamilcar (Drepanum),who is already linked. An excuse to link a second time? In my FABattle of Cape EcnomusI introduce him as "Hamilcar, the victor of the Battle of Thermae"; I could do the same again. What do you think?

I think either of those would be acceptable. Normally this other bluelink would not be acceptable, but I'd say with all of the similar names here, a second bluelink would definitely not be detrimental. Either way should be fine.

Blue linked.

Second paragraph of this section - Unless I missed it, you never give the name of the battle you describe here. That would be helpful information to the reader.

Very true. Inserted.

Umm... I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I noticed you inserted the battle's name and then removed it in the next edit. Is there a reason why it wouldn't be mentioned?

D'oh! I had two tabs open. I should have got an edit clash warning. Now fixed.

Is the Hamilcar mentioned in the third paragraph the same Hamilcar from earlier?So many similar names in this era

I have a recollection of reading that the Carthaginians only had eight male given names. Yes.

Caption from the map in this section

• You refer to the captured Roman general as Regulus in the caption but refer to the capture of Romulus in the text. Which one is correct?

Lol. I'm an idiot. Fixed.

• Also, the caption is preceded with "alt=", this is probably a markup error.

Thank you. Fixed.

• The Bagradas River is mentioned in the caption, but not in the text description of the Battle of Tunis

Standardised. And caption trimmed a little.

Hasdrubal should probably be wikilinked at first mention, since he hasn't been mentioned since the infobox. This isHasdrubal the Fair,right? (He seems to be the only Hasdrubal listed atHasdrubalwho would be alive at this time frame, although he would be youngish for army command.

Yeah, he would be 14. A completely different Hasdrubal, not on the list. I assume because this is the only historical mention of him and there is never going to an article on him. I could red link him, and/or add him to that list as an article free Hasdrubal?

Gog the MildIf this his only mention in recorded history, probably best not to add to the pseudo-disambiguation list or make a redlink.

Sicily(second section)

You mention the two consuls of 254 BC, but what are these two consuls' names? The consuls for the year of this year would be different than the consuls of the year for the previous years described, unless the Romans decided to carryover these.

I deliberately don't name them. The Romans got through some 40 consuls during the war (plus a dictator, who doesn't even get mentioned) and name checking them all would be tedious. So I have only mentioned the more memorable. Obviously, where you draw the line is subjective; but for me these two didn't make the cut. Plus I am trying to balance this - very roughly - with the number of Carthaginians mentioned by name.

That's fine with me, there's no point in naming all of the lesser ones if there's so many involved.

"They turned to the maritime offensive," - Should Carthaginians be specified at the start of the sentence (the context is established, but later in the sentence).

Done.

Aftermath- I know this is written in British English, but is there a word you could use besides "havered"? As a speaker of American English, I've never seen this word before and had to look it up. SeeMOS:COMMONALITY.

Ah, but "havered" describes it so precisely! And the situation, of course, is rather nuanced to be captured in a word. I have gone with "Carthage attempted to avoid paying in full the foreign troops..."

The references and images are all good, no signs of COPYVIO and AGF on the print sources.

Overall, a very good and informative article. Aside from the issues with that one caption, most of this is just copyedit that should be quick cleanup. Pinging nominator,Gog the Mild.Hog Farm(talk)20:22, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks againHog Farmfor this speedy and effective review. My responses above, including a couple of queries for you.Gog the Mild(talk)21:38, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Gog the Mild- I've responded to your comments, I think there's only like two or three little things left now before passing.Hog Farm(talk)22:41, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

ThanksHog Farm.I think that that is everything covered.Gog the Mild(talk)22:50, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Passing this one for GA now.Hog Farm(talk)23:17, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

No spaces for a span of years format

Do we need spaces before and after an en dash used for time range? Thiswebsitesays no. A span of years (such as “2009–2012” ) or any other time range includes an en dash. (And note that “from 2009–2012” and “between 2009–2012” are incorrect; either use both from and to, or between and and, or neither.) The same treatment is given to a sequence of components, such as a range of chapter or page numbers or amounts (for example, “chapters 1–10” or “250–300 pages” ).Hanberke(talk)07:26, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Hanberke:Thanks. My misreading ofMOS:DASHES.Gog the Mild(talk)11:52, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Lead

HiRobinvp11

The normal convention when wishing to demonstrate a change is to either put it in a sandbox, or make the change to the article and then self revert. The diff can then be posted - eg[1]- and discussed without getting into an edit war. I will undo your edit again, with no prejudice - I may end up entirely agreeing with it - and post my thoughts on it here. I note that you made a subsequent small change. Is your revision of the lead ready to be discussed, or are you still working on it?

You comment that I have asked for "collaboration". I have no memory of this, but my memory is not what it was; could you point me to where this discussion is taking place?

Thanks.

Gog the Mild(talk)15:42, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Length of lede

I understand that this was recently promoted to FA, but the middle two paragraphs of the lede describing the details of the conflict seem unusually long, detracting from the readability. Is it standard practice to have such a long lede in articles like this? As an uninvolved reader I personally found it excessive, but if this is longstanding practice then so be it.Bzweebl(talk•contribs)20:07, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

HiBzweebl.It has, as you say, just come out of FAC, and an unusually popular one; so there is a supposition of a strong consensus for the article. But you raise an interesting point, so I looked at my previous five FACs.

Article	Lead	Total	Lead as %
First Punic War	592	6,200	9.5
Battle of Dunbar (1650)	477	7,100	6.7
Treaty of Lutatius	339	2,682	12.6
Roman withdrawal from Africa, 255 BC	295	2,692	11.0
Battle of Adys	254	2,670	9.5
Battle of Panormus	269	2,641	10.2

So it would seem that at least in relation to my recent successful FACs the lead of this article is arguably a little on the short side in relation to the length of the whole article. Obviously, as a lengthy article, the lead was nevertheless longer than typical in absolute terms. It might be interesting to compare the lead length with similar sized FAs by other editors.Gog the Mild(talk)18:39, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Technical terms

HiVanamonde93and apologies for not getting back to you earlier; I came back from holiday to a confusion of RL and Wikipedia issues and this article completely slipped my mind. Checking your FAC comments the technical terms you specifically wanted explaining were "shock" and "close-order". I have found an article on the latter which is pretty good and have linked it in at first mention. There is an article onshock troops,but it is inappropriate; so I have inserted a footnote cited to a basic text (page 1 no less!).

• Does this cover your concerns?
• Is there anything else which stands out as being technical? I am probably too close to all of this jargon to be a good judge. In particular variants of the "Armies" section turn up in previous and (hopefully) future FAs, so if you feel like focusing on a smaller section, that is probably the one.

Thanks.Gog the Mild(talk)21:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild:Looks good, thank you for getting back to this. I always enjoy reviewing your work, so I'm happy to keep an eye out for future articles...Vanamonde(Talk)01:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Number of rams recovered

HiBuidhe,you may remember me being frustrated that I couldn't support there having been 11 rams recovered from off the Aegates because I was stuck in the Highlands. I said that I would get back to you. I still can't reconstruct my original sourcing *eyeroll* butthiswould seem adequate to support the original assertion. However, digging a little further, I found on the website of the organisation doing the excavationsthiswith "As of the end of the 2018 field season, 19 ancient warship rams have been added to the archaeological record". Are you OK with me updating appropriately? Cheers.Gog the Mild(talk)17:00, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

• That's fine by me. (t·c)buidhe00:19, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

  Buidhe,thanks. Done.Gog the Mild(talk)12:48, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

New map

Hello, I have made a new version of the map. The contents are the same as the older maps, but I've upscaled the quality.

While previous versions have been made with a pastel colour scheme, this time I used the official wikipedia colour scheme. Also, I have removed the key from the older map and intergrated the info into the map itself. I hope to replace the current maps with this newer version. GalaxMaps(talk)08:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

HiGalaxMaps,and thanks for posting this for discussion. I have put the original map here to allow comparison.

I am entirely happy about the principle of tweaking the map, although significant changes will need at least the notification of all of the original ACR and FAC reviewers, and ideally their explicit agreement to them. However, a non-exhaustive list of things which I feel areworseabout the proposed new map include:

• On the current map I can read much of the text, eg "Numidian" and "Carthage"; on your map I can't. I suspect that this is due to font size and better contrast against the background colours.
• On your map, even at full size I can barely see, much less read, the black print against the shade of purple you have chosen. And again at full size I struggle to read the tiny font of, say, Utica or Hippo.
• Your map does not integrate all of the detail of the key - the inclusion of which was a specific requirement of the image reviewer at FAC. Eg missing is "Carthaginian territory ceded to Rome" among other things.
• You don't name bodies of water.

Address these and I'll give it another look over. If you don't mind my asking, why did you decide to alter this map in the first place? Having got to FA quite a few people will have signed off on it as being of a high standard. If you would like to create new maps there are plenty needed; eg I am working on several other Punic War articles which I would like to get to FAC but which lack or have inadequate maps. Might you be interested in working with me to create them?Gog the Mild(talk)10:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

HiGog the Mild,thank you for giving constructive criticism for my map. I just finished editing the map, hopefully the issues have been fixed.

The reason I want to edit the map is because I found the map to be too low res, and that it wouldn't hurt to upload a higher res version of the old map. I'll also be happy to work on more maps to improve the articles.GalaxMaps(talk)10:39, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

HiGalaxMaps,I suspect that you may be on a losing cause, attempting to come up with a map sufficiently better than the existing one to gather a consensus to remove it when I suspect most editors would feel is already pretty good.

Re your changes, your choice of pale blue type on pale blue makes the the names of the seas unreadable to me. I suspect that your abbreviating the legend for the pink in the key is not going to be popular.

I will email when I get the chance and we can discuss whether you could do a series of maps forBattle of the Trebia,to replace the current not very useful battle-map. I took this to GA last year and don't think that it needs that much work to be close to FA standard.Gog the Mild(talk)12:57, 2 June 2021 (UTC)