Template talk:Campaignbox Second Sino-Japanese War

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Thanks toSkyfilerfor copying this campaignbox over to zhwikihere.A copious amount of cross references would come in very handy.

TheBattle of Nanchang( nam xương hội chiến ) links to 1927Nanchang Uprising( nam xương khởi nghĩa ), and should not be included in Second Sino-Japanese War.--Skyfiler19:17, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I see you've already changed it. I added a couple of redirects, so they shouldn't confuse anyone now. Incidentally, can someone verify the order of the battles here? --Miborovsky22:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

changed the order...Battle of NanchangfollowesBattle of Wuhan...--Skyfiler17:56, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

OKBattle of Changdedone...
--Миборовский^U|T|C|E01:02, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Battle of Beiping-TianjinandBattle of Shanggaoare now blue! 9 to go!
--Миборовский^U|T|C|E05:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

changedBattle of Nanchangthe 11th Division should be 11th ArmyAsiaticus11:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC) I have a pretty complete oob for both sides and more details on the battle to add.

I think the manchurian incident is appropriate here since theMukden Incidentarticle spends over half the space talking about what happened after the initial 9.18 incident. This includes the invasion of the northeastern provinces and the resulting lytton report.BlueShirts21:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Manchurian Incident vs Mukden Incident, both are as far as I am aware equally valid names for the same event; I certainly don't care whether the Campaignbox says "Manchuria" or "Mukden." But the event in question is not the invasion and occupation of Manchuria; that is not the focus nor the title of the linked article.LordAmeth22:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks like we gotta haveJapanese invasion of Manchuriathen. --Миборовский22:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that, since the mukden incident article covers the subsequent invasion. Unless we want to include another assortment of incidents (like the wanbaoshan incident) leading up to the main invasion of manchuria.BlueShirts22:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I prefer Mukden. This is what I think if you put Manchuria:

1. It would not match most of the format in the box. If you want to putMachuria,then you would have to removeNenjiang Bridge.Even so, it would still be awkward because the individual section in the campaign box focus on thespecificone campaignmostly.

2. In Asia, it is referred as the specific conflict of Mukden Incident that led to the entire Manchurian Incident. If in this way, you should not change it.

In European's mind, Mukden Incident and the Manchuria Incident is the exact same thing. If in this way, there'sno needfor you to change it.

3. If you put Manchuria, that would be in ageneralsense. In that way, you might as well just intergrate Marco Polo Bridge, Beiping-Tianjin, Chahar and Shanghai 1937 into "China" (1937 chi na sự 変).

ReplacingMukdentoManchuriais almost the same thing as replacingMarco Polo BridgetoChina Incident.Exaggerated, but that's my impression.

4. Kind of repeating 1.), but mãn châu sự 変 (Manchuria) is not just one campaign, but a series of invasion and events that branched out vastly. Liễu điều hồ sự kiện (Mukden) is more appropriate to put in the campaign box.

AQu01rius 22:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

If you guys insisted on changing it to "Manchuria", I suggest to put it in this format:

Manchuria(Mukden-Liaoling-Jiling-Helongjiang-Jinzhou-Harbin)

Then rename, rewrite and extend theMukden Incidentarticle according to the Chinese wiki version.

AQu01rius 22:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's more appropriate to put sihang warehouse immediately after battle of shanghai, since they belong to the same battle.BlueShirts22:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Campaignbox is getting too big

This must now be one of the biggest campaignboxes in Wikipedia. I think subsidiary campaignbox/battleboxes for the Invasion of Manchuria, Operation Nekka, Shanghai (1937), Battle of Taiyuan, Wuhan, Canton, Suixian-Zaoyang, S. Guangxi, Winter Offensive, Yunnan-Burma Road and others should be created, so that subsidiary campaigns and battles can be removed from this one.Grant|Talk03:09, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Just because its big doesnt mean its too big. It shows the whole course of a huge 14 year struggle contained within that small box. Its just the right size. Maybe the others are too small. As you may guess I am opposed.Asiaticus08:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The campaignbox is now much larger than the text in some articles(!) and this is untenable. SeeTemplate:Campaignbox New Guineaand subsidiary campaignboxes (Salamaua-Lae, Finisterres, Huon Peninsula, Bougainville, New Britain and Admiralties) for an example of how this kind of thing can be organised.Grant|Talk02:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Organization

I'm going to be bold and organize the campaignbox into sections (e.g. began in 1931, began in 1936, etc.) This is similar to the sections inTemplate: WWIITheatrethough the latter template organizes conflicts by region. I'm also adding "view" and "discussion" links.Count de Chagny04:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks good, but I think it's better to just divide to pre-1937 and post-1937, since that's generally the agreed-upon begin date of full scale war.Blueshirts06:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

According to your suggestion, I've merged the 1931-1936 sections, this section can be renamed Pre-1937 if that's the consensus. I still believe that there are too many battles and campaigns after 1937 to be grouped into a single section. Thanks.Count de Chagny12:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It's getting pretty convoluted in any case, and I suspect that there are a fair number of operations that aren't listed yet. The longer-term solution may be to actually split out the battles into several subsidiary campaignboxes, leaving this one to link across periods (similarly to, say,{{Campaignbox Napoleonic Wars}}).Kirill15:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Why do the breaks need to be forced through html? Wouldn't leaving non-html breaks in the edit pane make it easier for editors to recognize and view the breaks? The manual breaks also have a nice effect on the template itself and helps it take less space if you consider bytes. Thanks.Count de Chagny19:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they also seem to break some of the formatting in the template itself (in particular, the line-height setting); note that the template renders differently depending on which form of break is used.Kirill19:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand your concerns about the formatting (e.g. line height of breaks), but my primary motivation for using non-html breaks is to make it easier for editors to see section breaks in the edit pane. If this can be done along with html breaks (via comment tag maybe?), the html breaks would be great.Count de Chagny03:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that's a good idea; what do you think of my current attempt?Kirill04:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That's great. Let's stick to that. Of course, when it becomes more cluttered (maybe 20-25 more entries?) the people that edit this box might consider branching it off into multiple boxes. Thanks.Count de Chagny15:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Please do not make up new words like "1st Manchuria" and "2nd Manchuria". The 1931 Manchurian Incident and the 1945 Operation August Storm are completely different things. Go to a library catalog or the back of a book index and you won't find "1st Manchuria" and "2nd Manchuria" listed.Blueshirts(talk)22:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Problem

Why is MAncurian campian there? it russian not chinese—Precedingunsignedcomment added by69.157.68.144(talk)17:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Local war

2601:85:c101:c9d0:c8f5:681b:5214:c75e(talk·contribs·WHOIS)The 1931-1937 battles that were included in this template were not mentioned as the full-scale war, that's the reason why I named it as local war, that is a name that is used in Chinese Wikipedia's article Second Sino-Japanese War use to call the Sino-Japanese conflict during those years. If you want to use suggest another name or not to put those battles in this template speak up, but don't merge them with theTemplate:Japanese colonial campaignsbecuase that template is for wars and isolated battles. --2x2leax(talk)00:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. I hope I didn't come off as random or aggressive, I am a dynamic IP so I appear as if this is the first time I've contributed. As to the issue at hand, the contention that the war began in 1931 is disputed, and most scholars place the start date at 1937, as what happened prior was specificallyprewar.Full-scale fighting began in 1937. The 1931 start date, at least from what I can tell, has been largely pushed by the Chinese government as their preferred narrative. Not that that invalidates their claim. I believe the best course of action would be to not include the prewar battles, just as other war campaignboxes do not include prior incidents. As for those battles, I think perhaps a new campaignbox should be created to house them; you would be better suited to that since I am a dynamic IP. Thank you for your patience.2601:85:C101:C9D0:C8F5:681B:5214:C75E(talk)08:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

It's preferable to add them in my opinion as a prelude, there are templates that already do that and have no problem with showing battles prior to the declaration of war. --2x2leax(talk)02:32, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Pre war skirmishing

I do not believe the prewar fighting should be included in this infobox. The timeline should be for 1937-1945. Adding stuff before would be like adding pre-2003 events to the Iraq War infobox.2601:85:C101:C9D0:7190:BF29:CB87:6916(talk)21:02, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Proper template

Just created a proper template to include material out of scope for this campaignbox, located atTemplate:Second Sino-Japanese War.It is far from finished though and surely can use more input....GELongstreet(talk)11:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)