Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music

Adding a new page on WikiProject Music

Hello, can anybody help me addhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Jolyon_Petchto this group?

Thank you!— Precedingunsignedcomment added byAinamera22(talk•contribs) 01:26, July 17, 2021 (UTC)

Personnel listing on albums

Hi; since this WikiProject is probably of relevance, I'm assuming someone here would know the answer to the question I had atWikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music#Personnel listing on albums.Neo Purgatorio(talk)18:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Radiosoul

Hello everyone! I just wanted to let you know that I've createda draftforAlfie Templeman's next album, which is set to be released in a few weeks; given the artist's profile, I think we'll get enough media coverage on it to meetWP:GNGcomfortably. Whether you want to make corrections or add some more information, any kind of help is appreciated!Oltrepier(talk)17:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if its really "ready" to be published if you've got 4 blank sections and almost no content written for it outside of a few sentence intro. I'd wait until you can write a bit more about it first before publishing. Drafts like this are likely to just getredirected.Sergecross73 msg me 17:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sergecross73:I know, don't worry: I purposefully added those blank section templates to remind myself of working on the draft once I retrieve enough material!: )Oltrepier(talk)19:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gotcha. Sorry, sometimes editors post similar questions that are basically "Look at my work, is it ready"? I see now that your comment wasn't quite worded like that. Sorry for kind of answering a question that you weren't really asking. The sourcing at the bottom does look good, so Idothink it'll be ready once more content has been written.Sergecross73 msg me 19:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sergecross73:No worries at all! And truth be told: beforelast time,I didn't even know that album articles could be posted to the mainspace way earlier than their release date...Oltrepier(talk)20:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there's no question that this will pass WP:NALBUM once it's released – it will certainly chart in the UK, and his last album hadplenty of noteworthy reviews.Richard3120(talk)20:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone! I'm planning to complete my draft as soon as possible, now that the album is out. Like I wrote, any help would be appreciated!Oltrepier(talk)15:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done! You can now find the full articlehere.Oltrepier(talk)14:27, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I'veboldlydecided to make a slight change to the title ofa similarly-titled albumbyJonathan ByrdandDiana Jones,in order to avoid confusion (I think Alfie's album is going to be way more popular, anyway).Oltrepier(talk)14:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RSN discussion about Ones To Watch

There is a discussion on RSN about the reliability of Ones To Watch, any input would be helpful (seeWP:RSN#Ones To Watch's reliability and use for notability). --LCUActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°10:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone with a Billboard subscription please verify something for me?

Hello! I'm currently writing an article aboutR.eal1ze,an album released on January 9, 2017 byRavi.I'm trying to verify the accuracy of the charting positions of the album. Ravi's main article says that it reached number 8 on the US World Albums chart (Billboard), but I can't verify the source because I don't have a Billboard subscription. I'm extra concerned about the accuracy of the information because the citation on Ravi's main page actually is an archived link from BEFORE the album was released, which means it would be impossible for R.eal1ze to have been on that page because it hadn't been released yet. Can someone with a Billboard subscription please verify or correct this information for me? The link to the chart is[1]https:// billboard /charts/world-albums/.Thanks!Gottagotospace(talk)17:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, itdebuted at number 8 on the week of January 28, 2017.As for the archive link being prior to the release date, that's because the link itself leads to the main page of the chart, not a specific week. So IA bot probably chose a random archive date.AstonishingTunesAdmirer Liên lạc19:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much! I appreciate your help!Gottagotospace(talk)19:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infections of a Different Kind (Step 1)categorization

The appropriate recording categorization (EP or album) forInfections of a Different Kind (Step 1)is currently being discussedat the article talk page.Please join the discussion to help form a consensus.Sock (~~tock~~talk)20:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of one-hit wonders in the United States

I wrote on the above's talk page[2]that I'd post here to ask for feedback from other music editors. What started as a disagreement over the inclusion of the Wallflowers morphed into a discussion about an incredibly poorBustlelisticle[3]and then, not for the first time, morphed into a question about the basic premise of the list: "one-hit wonder" vs. artist with one top 40 hit, and whether an encyclopedic article can make the two synonymous. This is a list that seems mostly edited by one editor--which is fine; too much is made of WP Ownership--and a list that has always been full of poor sources, built on top of the work of Wayne Jancik (who mentions the Wiki love on his site), and gets off to a rocky start by explaining that the artists need to be mentioned by "two sources in media", rather than two reliable sources. There are two schools of thought, maybe:Tacois a one-hit wonder vs.Frank Zappais a musician who had one top 40 hit (Zappa is mentioned in the prose, sourced to anEntertainment Weekly"article" that is a reproduction of a VH1 list). This isn't about aesthetic judgement or rockism--I'll always take fun and poppy over serious and pretentious. But there seems to be consistent disagreement and tortured reasoning about keeping artists who had multiple hits across many U.S. formats or for whom "one-hit wonder" may not be a defining characteristic. It may be time to go with either the cultural construct or the chart history. Yesterday was my first day editing the page, to my knowledge. If I'm in the minority of thinking that the list has problems, I'll shut up and take it off my watchlist. Thoughts? Thanks.Caro7200(talk)16:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I always think these kind of lists are problematic, because the fundamental definition of a one-hit wonder is not fixed. TheGuinness Book ofBritish Hit Singles & Albumsalways defined a one-hit wonder as an artist who had one number-one hit and no other chart entries whatsoever. Here we have a US-based definition that the song need not be a number-one, and then another definition that in fact other minor chart entries are acceptable. If there is no fixed definition of a one-hit wonder then the list is always going to be debated.Richard3120(talk)17:43, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The inability to define the central term of the article and the extraordinary instability of that article over the long run makes me question whether it is worth having at all.Chubbles(talk)23:25, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say I'd thought much about it before, but seeing these comments, I'm inclined to agree with Chubbles here.QuietHere(talk|contributions)23:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Me too. I believe I looked into this years back, but found it difficult to contribute to. Seems like there was a lot of contradictory claims by reliable sources. (Ie claims of artists being one hit wonders despite technically having 0, 2, or more, "hits" in the traditional sense.) Sadly, because the concept itself is well-known and well-documented by reliable sources, it may be difficult to delete (not that I'd personally defend it though.)Sergecross73 msg me 00:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is K-Pop a music genre?

Due to myeditson quite a lot of articles ofK-Popsongs being removed most of them saying K-Pop isn't a genre. I believe it is and I want to provide a consensus acrossWikipediaif it is.

From what I know, the first known open discussion about this on English Wikipedia is made by me atTalk:K-pop#Is K-Pop a music genre?and one atTalk:Ddu-du Ddu-Du#Is K-Pop a music genre?

If this discussion gets too big, maybe it could it a WikiProject if it works like that too. —Tonkarooson(talk)00:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now, I'm going to share my reasons why I thinkK-Popis a music genre:

Most K-Pop music is recorded in South Korea and released in South Korea.
If you can tell the difference between K-Pop and other songs, then it's pretty easy to tell which song isKorean.
K-Pop has a unique style that can be easy to differentiate.
K-Pop isn't just a musical genre, it's an industry, distributed and promoted in a very different way than other territories, even if it's just a little bit.

also, if this topic doesnt have enough peopleinterested,it would be best to move thisdiscussionto adifferent WikiProject.—Tonkarooson(talk)23:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may want to take some more time learning how Wikipedia works before taking this on. Those sorts of reasons aren't likely to be persuasive in the context of Wikipedia...Sergecross73 msg me 23:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's no intention to persuade, but I will gladly look at the necessary guidelines about this. What things should I look at? —Tonkarooson(talk)22:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with the subject area, but the current wording of the K-pop article doesn't seem to refer to it as a genre, so it would seem like that's at least its current status. I have no personal opinion on the matter, though I can say that not every descriptor we use to describe music is automatically a genre. We don't consider apower ballada genre either, for example.

Also, that's...not really how Wikiprojects work. They really just form when you've got a bunch of constant, dedicated editors who work frequently on the area and have interest in putting the work in on putting them together and collaborating in them. While anyone can make one on anything, in my experience and opinion, the vast majority of them fail due to lack of activity/participation. On one hand, K-pop is popular right now, so maybe there is hope. On the other hand, usually only the most widest appeal are functional.WP:ALBUMSis really the only other active music one besides here.WP:VGis pretty much the only active one in video games. People always say there's a popular one about military history or something. But more specific ones - like Wikiproject "Rock Music" or "Lady Gaga" or whatever - always seem to fizzle out.Sergecross73 msg me 14:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's already aWikipedia:WikiProject Korea/Popular culturetask force that focuses on K-pop music articles.Erick(talk)14:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Erick is right, there is no need for a WikiProject when a task force already exists, and that's enough. As for the original question, I tend to think that K-pop is not a genre and more a widely used term for any music originating from South Korea. I'm not an expert in this area either, but I've heard enough K-pop to see that it covers a wide variety of music styles which makes it difficult to say that a particular song or artist is "typical of the genre".Richard3120(talk)19:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the question is similar toLatin pop.Is it pop music sung in Korean or pop music fused with other Korean music?Erick(talk)19:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TheK-Poparticle's description says "South Korean popular music genre", describing it as agenre.However, the last sentence in the first paragraph says, "While" K-pop "can refer to all popular music or pop music from South Korea, it is colloquially often used in a narrower sense for any Korean music and artists associated with the entertainment and idol industry in the country, regardless of the genre. [contradictory]". These sentences here makes its definition of a musical genre make it even more of a harder question to debate on. —Tonkarooson(talk)04:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I thinkK-popis a genre and from what I see most K-pop editors on Wikipedia seem to consider it one, although some prefer more specific genres if sources say those. The K-pop article discusses it being a genre—e.g.The more modern form of the genre, originally termed "rap dance"...and discusses it being a "hybrid genre" in that it synthesizes a lot of Western music styles, like EDM and hip hop—and it's also categorised as a pop music genre. I think that's pretty clear, but obviously some editors are bound to disagree. IF there's contention around what you consider a simple broad genre description, it's best to source it.Ss11217:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you're alluding to me, its not that I disagree per se, its just that I figured it'd be a little bit more upfront in its own article if it was generally considered a genre. For example:

Discoopens up as"Disco is a genre of dance music".
K-popopens up as"K-pop (Korean: 케이팝; RR: keipap), short for Korean popular music, is a form of popular music originating in South Korea as part of South Korean culture. It includes styles and genres from around the world, such as pop, hip hop, R&B, rock, jazz, gospel, reggae, electronic dance, folk, country, disco, and classical on top of its traditional Korean music roots".

In the K-pop article, the word "genre" doesn't pop up to describe the subject itself its opening 2 sentences defining it. To me, that makes it sound more like an umbrella term than a genre itself. Of course, Wikipedia itself is not a source, nor am I saying it should be considered as one. I'm just saying...if it was considered a genre, this intro would certainly feel like a rather upfront and glaring error on a high traffic and well-developed article. And one that's been presentfor at least the entirety of 2024.

Regardless, if its a recurring issue, maybe it'd be worth creating anWP:RFCfor.Sergecross73 msg me 18:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This topic wasn't meant to judge if it's a genre or not according toWikipedia.The people who edit K-Pop articles would probably know quite a lot aboutK-Popas a whole. I listen to and really likeK-Pop.I believe this discussion shouldn't include what Wikipedia says. Another question that could go good is, how much do you know about K-Pop and its music? —Tonkarooson(talk)05:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was just an example.Sergecross73 msg me 10:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From a pure OR perspective, I can say that I find it complicated. Having heard a decent amount of K-pop, I can tell you that it often stretches across various genres/influences in the same way American pop music does, e.g. laterBTSsongs arenu-disco;Blackpinkmakes very loudelectropop;andNewJeansmake very soft, '90s/2000selectronica.I've even heard "K-pop" (or "K-indie" in some instances) groups who make rock and metal music. Typically, they are tied together sonically by a particularly squeaky clean production style, though that isn't too different from pop music generally. I think it's a bit oversimple to just call it "pop music from South Korea", but that's also a wholly accurate description. Whether that's worth labelling as its own genre, I dunno, though I think it'd be weird to remove from articles on K-pop songs/albums because of that lack of designation because the connection is still clear and it's quite reasonable to assume readers would want to click on that link.

But again, that's purely OR on my part. I don't know what sources say because I haven't checked, but I imagine they'd be just as vague about it as we are.QuietHere(talk|contributions)19:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and it's worth noting that K-pop isn't the only national scene to which this discussion applies. An editor recentlyremoved J-rockfrom an entry onList of 2007 albums.I would have to imagine the same logic would apply toJ-pop,Mandopop,Cantopop,C-pop,andIndo pop(and probably a whole bunch more) as well.QuietHere(talk|contributions)19:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what "OR" means. Other music genres do all kinds ofstylesandsubgenres,for exampleRap,EDMand others.

I don't have much to say about this take because it's talking about what music styles other groups do, rather than what K-Pop has that can classify it as a genre or not.

Quite fascinating such similar topics are in other wide labels of music, though! —Tonkarooson(talk)05:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OR stands for "wp:original research",which is to say things that editors add per their own knowledge but without providing a reliable source that backs up the claim, AKA a big no-no. Basically, I just wanted to give my own two cents from my own knowledge, but while acknowledging that what I'm saying can't be used because I don't have the background research available to support it.QuietHere(talk|contributions)06:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What would be extremely helpful if the people who don't know much aboutK-Popcan learn more about it! —Tonkarooson(talk)22:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I asked a friend who is a K-pop expert, and his response wasn't a direct yes or no. Even from what I know, as I said, it's a complicated matter, and as I told my friend, I suspect that means we should default to no.QuietHere(talk|contributions)00:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we say no toK-Popbeing a music genre, I believe it wouldn't be enough consensus to conduct a final answer.

In case you didn't see, I have listed my own reasons why I think it is a genre at the top of this discussion, including some replies back. —Tonkarooson(talk)22:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OR is short fororiginal research.Erick(talk)06:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coming back to this discussion for a second.

It has been suggested that I shouldresearchonK-Popand learn more about Wikipedia. I haven't done any research about this possiblegenrengl.

What I wanted to add to this is, if K-Pop doesn't come to a conclusion/consensus if it is a music genre or not, possibly we could consider it as a umbrella term or amicrogenre.It makes sense, on Wikipedia, it is a niche or specialized genre. What's really unique about these two terms for K-Pop is that they both fit K-Pop extremely well! (To me at least).Tonkarooson(discuss).00:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you're quite understanding how Wikipedia works. We, as editors, don't just decide on things on like ourselves.Everythingis based onWP:V- whatreliable sourcessay. The terminology needs to reflect what sources most commonly say on the matter.Sergecross73 msg me 01:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do understand how Wikipedia works. I understand most editors take facts fromsources that are reliable.But also, I believe this question about K-Pop also has to do with the person's opinion, seeing how vast and diverse K-Pop is with its music styles. And due to this, it seems like the type of question where we possibly might have to learn more about K-Pop in a neutral point of view by learning more about its characteristics and the wayK-Popsounds compared to other songs that are not K-Pop

For example, you might have listened to a song and couldn't quite figure out what it's called or who's it by. For K-Pop it's a bit different but same outcome, you might be able to tell the difference between K-Pop and not K-Pop.Tonkarooson(discuss).03:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No no no. Not "most" editors.Alleditors must take facts from reliable sources. Some (unfortunately too many) fail at this, but it's still a hard rule. This is not and has never been a question of editors' opinions, but of what reliable sources say. Relying on our opinions, as I said above, would beoriginal research,and that is not allowed.QuietHere(talk|contributions)03:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the top I said "I believe it is and I want to provide a consensus acrossWikipediaif it is. "This was partially meant to be a consensus across general knowledge ofK-pop,but notoriginal research.Also,yourcommenthasORand seems to discuss the sound of all the different genres. "But again, that's purely OR on my part. I don't know what sources say because I haven't checked, but I imagine they'd be just as vague about it as we are." Yes, the sources probably thinks it's a hard question, which it seems like it is.Tonkarooson(discuss).04:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, when I made those comment, I knew that the discussion wasn't strictly coming from a Wikipedia-centric perspective. But there's a line between just having a conversation about a topic and actually implementing the results of that discussion in editing practice. Nothing I said was ever meant to leave this page, and that's why I emphasized that it was coming from my own perspective and not any sources.QuietHere(talk|contributions)06:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can only see 2 interpretations of what's happening here. 1) You're asking editors if we can call K-Pop a "microgenre", which no editor can unilaterally decide for you because we need to go by sources, not editor's opinions. Or 2) You're asking other editors to do your research for you, which isn't likely to happen, as on Wikipedia, we generally followWP:BURDEN- ifyouwish to pursue something, then it's onyouto do it, not others.Sergecross73 msg me 13:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All female bands

Why do we categorise bands with all female members as "all female" while never categorising bands with all male members as "all male" or bands with a mix of member genders as "mixed gender"?Fred Gandt·talk·contribs12:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a problem--cat should be deleted, in my opinion.Caro7200(talk)12:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One is probably consideredWP:DEFINING,the other not. There are many scenarios where we we don't have "equivalent" categories like that, for that very reason.Sergecross73 msg me 13:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seconding this. I'm sure if you search the bands inCategory:All-female bands,you'll find a lot of results using that exact phrase. And, asCATGENDERsays, certain categories don't need to be balanced against an equivalent. Separating categories by gender is standard Wikipedia practice now, and this falls well within those terms, so I see no issue here.QuietHere(talk|contributions)16:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Serge for the useful link. I may, if I ever have the energy, wade through some of them and see if it's sources or us defining them.Fred Gandt·talk·contribs22:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But there isCategory:Mixed-gender bands.Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me}04:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sad news

I am sad to report thatHyacinth,a very long-standing editor to articles on this project, has passed away. Condolences should go onhis talk page.Graham87(talk)08:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Best of Kris Kross Remixed '92 '94 '96

I couldn't find any sources forBest of Kris Kross Remixed '92 '94 '96whatsoever, and I don't think it's even an official album, as it doesn't even have an entry on AllMusic.Jax 0677(talk·contribs) is being a bit unusual about sourcing, claiming thatKris Krossneeds a source to prove the album exists even though it has an article. (I cannot wrap my brain around the concept of "Article A needs a source to prove that the subject of Article B exists." ) I could only find Discogs, Genius, and other user generated sources for it, and no mentions of it in reliable sources like Billboard. I personally think it should be sent to AFD for lack of verifiability and being an unlikely redirect/merge term due to its seemingly unofficial nature, but as I am topic banned from XFD I cannot do it myself and leave it to others to decide. Pinging@Binksternet:,@Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars:,and@Koavf:,all of whom have edited the article.Ten Pound Hammer•^{(What did I screw up now?)}03:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've found the album listed in three books:[4],[5]and[6].It definitely exists though I am doubtful it should have it's own article. I'll add these sources to the Kris Kross article.Vladimir.copic(talk)03:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not convinced it's notable.Ten Pound Hammer•^{(What did I screw up now?)}05:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From my search I would probably agree with you that it isn't notable enough for a standalone article. But, in your initial comment you were saying that the album isn't "official" and cannt be verified. I've provided three high quality sources verifying the album exists and is "official" (whatever this means). (Also an album's "officialness" doesn'taffect its notability.)Vladimir.copic(talk)05:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a lack of sources, so it's appropriate to redirect and keep the categories. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯05:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with this and have gone ahead and boldly redirected.QuietHere(talk|contributions)06:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]