Property talk:P1477

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Documentation

birth name
full name of a person at birth, if different from their current, generally used name
DescriptionName at birth, only if different from current name
Representsname at birth(Q2507958)
Data typeMonolingual text
Template parameter|birth name=inen:Template:Infobox personand various others (en:Template:Infobox sportsperson,en:Template:Infobox dancer)
Domain
According to this template: person
According to statements in the property:
human(Q5),animal(Q729)orfictional character(Q95074)
When possible, data should only be stored as statements
ExampleJohn Paul II(Q989)→Karol Józef Wojtyła
Barack Obama(Q76)→Barack Hussein Obama II
Jacinda Ardern(Q3606816)→Jacinda Kate Laurell Ardern
Élisabeth Pognon(Q25999582)→Élisabeth Kayissan Ékoué
Boris Henry(Q652538)→Boris Henry
Caitlyn Jenner(Q365144)→William Bruce Jenner
SourceInfobox on Wikipedia page (note: this information should be moved to a property statement; use propertysource website for the property(P1896))
Robot and gadget jobsCould be easily imported from infoboxes by various bots
Tracking: usageCategory:Pages using Wikidata property P1477(Q20079238)
See alsofamily name(P734),patronym or matronym(P5056),family name identical to this given name(P1533),Scandinavian middle family name(P6978),married name(P2562)
Lists
Living people protection classproperty that may violate privacy(Q44601380)
Proposal discussionProposal discussion
Current uses
Total201,052
Main statement200,901>99.9% of uses
Qualifier120<0.1% of uses
Reference31<0.1% of uses
[createCreate a translatable help page (preferably in English) for this property to be included here]
Qualifiers “transliteration or transcription(P2440),revised Hepburn romanization(P2125),Hanyu Pinyin transliteration(P1721),McCune-Reischauer romanization(P1942),name in kana(P1814),IPA transcription(P898),ISO 9:1995(P2183),Hungarian-style transcription(P2719),Wylie transliteration(P4187),sourcing circumstances(P1480),writing system(P282),has characteristic(P1552),Möllendorff transliteration(P5139),Revised Romanization(P2001),statement supported by(P3680),statement disputed by(P1310),has cause(P828),language of work or name(P407),generational suffix(P8017),reason for deprecated rank(P2241),reason for preferred rank(P7452),Slavistic Phonetic Alphabet transcription(P5276),start time(P580),end time(P582),ALA-LC romanization(P8991),applies to work(P10663),Ukrainian national romanization(P9373),ALA-LC romanization for Ukrainian(P9453),Vietnamese reading(P5625),Jyutping transliteration(P9311),Yale romanization(P9313),nature of statement(P5102),vocalized name(P4239),named after(P138),end cause(P1534),pronunciation audio(P443)”:this property should be used only with the listed qualifiers. (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.Exceptions can be specifiedusingexception to constraint(P2303).
List of violations of this constraint:Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#allowed qualifiers,SPARQL
Type “human(Q5),animal(Q729),fictional character(Q95074)”:item must contain property “instance of(P31)”with classes “human(Q5),animal(Q729),fictional character(Q95074)”or their subclasses (defined usingsubclass of(P279)). (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.Exceptions can be specifiedusingexception to constraint(P2303).
List of violations of this constraint:Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#Type Q5, Q729, Q95074,SPARQL
Single best value:this property generally contains a single value. If there are several, one would have preferred rank (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.Exceptions can be specifiedusingexception to constraint(P2303).
List of violations of this constraint:Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#single best value,SPARQL
Allowed entity types areWikibase item(Q29934200):the property may only be used on a certain entity type (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.Exceptions can be specifiedusingexception to constraint(P2303).
List of violations of this constraint:Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#Entity types
Scope isas main value(Q54828448):the property must be used by specified way only (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.Exceptions can be specifiedusingexception to constraint(P2303).
List of violations of this constraint:Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#Scope,SPARQL
Citation needed:the property must have at least one reference (Help)
Exceptions are possible as rare values may exist.Exceptions can be specifiedusingexception to constraint(P2303).
List of violations of this constraint:Database reports/Constraint violations/P1477#citation needed
Pattern^(.*) (.*)$will be automatically replaced to\1 \2.
Testing:TODO list
This property is being used by:

Please notify projects that use this property before big changes (renaming, deletion, merge with another property, etc.)


Person properties
Name
Birth
Death
General
Education
Profession
Views
Body
Family
Wikidata properties related toname(Q82799)
General
Person
Name
Taxonomy
Science (other)

English variants

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Can we just have "en" and not the variants? In this situation English is English, not en-gb, en-ca, or any other. —billinghurstsDrewth13:43, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree.DGtal(talk)05:36, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Usage question

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If a person has two or even three parallel birth names one should probably add all (common in multilingual countries or minorities). Are we also supposed to add non native language birth names (via transcript) or should this property be limited to birth languages only?DGtal(talk)05:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

since there is now a specificname in native language(P1559),I guess this is not restricted, but allows transcription in all languages (or at least alphabets) - am I wrong?:) --Hsarrazin(talk)12:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
name in native language(P1559)is used for current name, whilst P1477 deals with birth name which is often quite different, especially for immigrants and married women.DGtal(talk)23:56, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Monolingual text?

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How do I know what language acombination of nameshas? From what I know, "Ingmar Bergman" has a combination of an Old Norse first name and a Swedish last name. My current private first name is from United States and my last name is Gaelic, but I was born with a Swedish last name. My wife's first name is a combination of Latin and Hebrew and her last name before she married me was Swedish. My sisters first name is French but has a Swedish spelling. My fathers first name is Norwegian, but has a Swedish spelling. I also have other names, one is Latin in origin, but has been modified to fit a Swedish tongue, my third first name is Danish. My grandfathers first name was "Scandinavian", but that's not regarded as a language and I do not think the software accepts it! --Innocent bystander(talk)19:38, 3 March 2015 (UTC)(Confused)[reply]

How about using it with the language the birth registry was in? ---Jura18:04, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then it is controlled by the native language of the man who wrote the census-books, within the limits of the language-laws of course, and has nothing to do with what the name looks like, the language of the parents or their ethnic group(s)!
Everybody born in Sweden 1808-1999 would then have Swedish names, whatever the name looks like. And from 1600-1808 everybody would have Swedish, Finnish or maybe German names. --Innocent bystander(talk)09:49, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Imho monolingual text for P1477 is a mistake and should be changed to string like all other name properties. Just think about rules like: first name = 40%, last name = 40 % + nationaly = 20 %. Please see special instructions for middle name and bi-nationalites. He's got a French-Swedish name prononced German with a light Russian accent. --Kolja21(talk)09:07, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

strange error on description editing

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Tracked inPhabricator
Task T99134

I'm trying to edit the Italian description of this property, like this: "nome completo di una persona alla nascita, se diverso dal nome generalmente usato". But when I try to save it, I get this error:

An error occurred while saving. Your changes could not be completed. Details: Property P513 already has label "syntymänimi" associated with language code fi.

What the...?Candalua(talk)15:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And when I try to fix the fi-label of P513, I got an error related to the cy-label of P753! Great! --Innocent bystander(talk)15:53, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Upon trying to add a description for sco, I get the same error message as you,Candalua.Maybe we should bring this up atproject chat?--AmaryllisGardenertalk16:38, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This sounds like a bug in the software, so bringing it up atWD:DEVis the way to go. --Pasleim(talk)17:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What is the difference between this property and P1559?

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What is the difference between this property andname in native language(P1559)?Juan Mayordomo(talk)19:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I guess, P1477 shows the birth name in the language of the country of birth, while P1599 shows the final name (can be identical with the birth name) in the native language of the person. For instance a person who did not change its name does not have an entry at P1477, but if its native language uses another alphabet than the latin one then it is displayed that way at P1599. Or if somebody is born in the USA but has as native language Japanese, then P1477 and P1559 may also be different. --Otets(talk)12:35, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Otets:That's it, and also use P1477 when the person changed name because of marriage, religion, rank, pseudonym, etc...:) --Hsarrazin(talk)13:06, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Qualifier for name format

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Please seeWikidata_talk:WikiProject_Names#Qualifier_for_name_format.
---Jura13:38, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Single Value

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How on Earth can a property of data type "Monolingual text" be constrained to a single value? The whole point of monolingual text is that it allows us to have a value for each of multiple languages. The isn't the English Wikidata; it's supposed to be internationalised. --RexxS(talk)15:51, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@RexxS:Mostly agreed here. The point here is that only the name of the person at birth should be given, in the language it was originally written down. But there are many people who were given different names in different languages at birth (like me!). I think the single value constraint was added with the thought of excluding "real names" that were given later in life, but forgot about people having multiple names at birth. Therefore I'm removing the single value constraint.Deryck Chan(talk)17:36, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you,Deryck.I think the problem is wider for me. If I write code for making a Wikidata-aware infobox on Commons, for example, folks expect to see the infobox in their own language. I believe Chinese readers want to see mao trạch đông and English readers want to see Mao Zedong asbirth name(P1477)forMao Zedong(Q5816).I can only do that if we're allowed to put such uncontroversial translations into the statement. That's really what I'm getting at by "internationalisation". --RexxS(talk)20:42, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@RexxS:I would disagree with that intended use of this property, because that would lead to loss of information about which name was the original name. As Jura wrote below, I think we shouldn't add translations as main value at all. From the list of allowed qualifiers, it seems that transliterations of names should be added as qualifiers, not as main values.Deryck Chan(talk)08:59, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll simply register my fundamental disagreement with the logic behind disallowing transliterations or translations for properties such as this. If you put yourselves in the position of theusersof the data here, you'll immediately see that they want to see text in their own language whenever possible. The whole purpose of monolingual text is to provide such translations - we have the string datatype for text that is not meant to have that facility, but I can see no advantage in barring editors from adding useful transliterations, as the original value(s) could be indicated as preferred or qualified withobject named as(P1932)(whichisa string datatype). --RexxS(talk)13:30, 5 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • One would loose the current certainty of having the actual birth name. Even ruwiki uses Latin-script names for people with such a name, not Cyrillic. You can still include transliterations, just add it as a qualifier. ---Jura00:03, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • On the contrary, questions of the certainty of a property value should be provided by a reference, just add one to the appropriate monolingual value. The only exception to adding references is in cases likename in native language(P1559)which is in place of having a reference for the label in the native language. What you lose by not allowing transliterations is that either millions of end users can't see the birth name in their own script, or every single re-user has to write code which reads the property for some languages and the qualifier for other languages. Crazy. --RexxS(talk)15:06, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@RexxS,Deryck Chan,Jura1:Hi, I added the constraint once again as a suggested constraint with clarification. I hope this works for everyone. There is currently a discussion over at huwiki about the erroneous data (i.e. transliterations) appearing in infoboxes. –Máté(talk)15:32, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a reasonable compromise.Deryck Chan(talk)11:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Clash with Norwegian (Bokmål/Nynorsk)

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Norwegian (no) has two written forms; Bokmål (nb) and Nynorsk (nn). Personal names are always identical in these two forms. Wikidata doesn't allow you to select Norwegian in the language box; you must select either Bokmål or Nynorsk. See where this is going? Recent example:Dennis Reksten(Q20685285).-Soulkeeper(talk)09:02, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's curious. I didn't realise using Norwegian (no) was forbidden. Maybe use nb / nn depending on the official language that was used on the birth certificate / municipality of birth?Deryck Chan(talk)11:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

property that may violate privacy?

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WikiProject Propertieshas more than 50 participants andcouldn't be pinged.Please post onthe WikiProject's talk pageinstead.

This is really a continuation ofsomepreviousdiscussion.

The item affected isVermin Supreme(Q70605).In 2013 heaskedEnglish Wikipedia OTRS to remove his birth name, which appears in some sources (which may or may not be reliable). There's currently public sources state that he want to make his birth name private (so I added P1477=somevalue with such source and not deprecate it, but I don't know whether it is a good idea).

So:

  • Shouldbirth name(P1477)be considered a property that may violate privacy? (I have such idea, but I do want more comment.)
  • If someone doesn't want their birth name public, Should Wikidata honor their decision by not including their birth name even if they may be found in sources? (Likely, and it is the practice of Wikipedia). We probably need a way to prevent the data from being imported from external sources in the future. But even if we do not include the actual birth name, it may still be debated alternative solution:
  1. Not addingbirth name(P1477)at all (this does not discourage others to readd the data)
  2. Addbirth name(P1477)= somevalue and deprecate it, probably tagged byreason for deprecated rank(P2241)=Q86535474(but it iscurrently in RFD)
  3. Addbirth name(P1477)= somevalue but not deprecate it
  • What's the proper choice if it is not public knowledge that the person does not want to disclose the information? (I suggest #2)
  • What's the proper choice if itispublic knowledge that the person does not want to disclose the information, as in this case? (I suggest #3)

--GZWDer(talk)20:42, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with all of the above. Birth name is also sensitive information for trans-gender people.ArthurPSmith(talk)21:44, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But what should we do withVermin Supreme(Q70605)?What should be do with people with private birth name and if there's no public source explicitly stating birth name as "unknown" or "private"?--GZWDer(talk)21:47, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Another example isthis changetoLa Veneno(Q11687785).See alsotalk page discussion.Bovlb(talk)22:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GZWDer:I'm just now coming to this. This question is a really important one that should be decided site-wide, so requires an RfC in my estimation, not just a discussion on a single talk page. Idon't see an RfC linking to this property.Are you willing to start one? If not, I will. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯07:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Geburtsname vs. vollständiger Name

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Bezeichnung vollständiger Name Geburtsname
Herrn Müllers Frau Liese Müller geb. Maier Maier
Papst Johannes Paul II. Johannes Paul II. Karol Józef Wojtyła

The German description is a misleading contradiction to usual usage of the object "maiden name" in German Language. Of course in case of a Pope e. g. who changes his full name to a single taken name his birth name is his former full name. But the other case where due to a marriage only the family name is changed is much more common. In this case the birth name is no full name. So we Shouldn't describe it that way and hence shouldn't use it for persons not having changed their names.

Description should be: "ursprüngliche Namensteile, die nachträglich geändert wurden" --Vollbracht(talk)15:54, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and we should do the same for France.Football Lab(talk)19:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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